From sentto-44114-1983-mark=kli.org@returns.onelist.com Tue Feb 15 04:39:47 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: shoulson-kli@meson.org Received: (qmail 32036 invoked from network); 15 Feb 2000 04:39:46 -0000 Received: from zash.lupine.org (205.186.156.18) by pi.meson.org with SMTP; 15 Feb 2000 04:39:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 16714 invoked by uid 40001); 15 Feb 2000 04:42:17 -0000 Delivered-To: kli-mark@kli.org Received: (qmail 16711 invoked from network); 15 Feb 2000 04:42:16 -0000 Received: from hi.egroups.com (208.48.218.11) by zash.lupine.org with SMTP; 15 Feb 2000 04:42:16 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-44114-1983-mark=kli.org@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.10.36] by hi.egroups.com with NNFMP; 15 Feb 2000 04:42:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 27288 invoked from network); 15 Feb 2000 04:42:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by 10.1.10.36 with QMQP; 15 Feb 2000 04:42:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO stmpy.cais.net) (199.0.216.101) by 10.1.10.27 with SMTP; 15 Feb 2000 04:42:14 -0000 Received: from bob (dynamic103.cl7.cais.net [205.177.20.103]) by stmpy.cais.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA04497 for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2000 23:41:41 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000214222734.00b1e920@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: vir1036/pop.cais.com@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 To: The Lojban List In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list lojban@onelist.com; contact lojban-owner@onelist.com Delivered-To: mailing list lojban@onelist.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 22:42:31 -0500 From: "Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" Subject: RE: [lojban] 3 loafs Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: "Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" At 07:50 PM 02/14/2000 -0500, Robert A. McIvor wrote: > > Maybe I confused things a bit by the E translation 'again-ate'. > However, > >as a matter of principle, I consider a predicate to indicate an operation > >which takes > >arguments. I see no reason why the arguments should be considered to be > >linked unless the > >arguments themselves specify a linkage. To me, gentci just indicated two > >eating > >operations linked as a time-series. Since the bread arguments were both > >indefinite, in my > >opinion there is no reason to consider them linked. However, if, as in E, > >one wished definitely to indicate that the same loaf was not eaten twice, > >one could say ne norsao rebfoa (a not-same bread-form). Does Lojban > >interpret predicates differently? I don't think that it is necessarily that we interpret predicates differently. I think that the rather more literal use of place structures in Lojban lujvo over TLI compounds may be the hidden issue. There also may be a question as to the meaning of an indefinite quantifier, which is something we've argued out many times with no one reallly being satisfied as to the resolution. The convention when making a lujvo like your gentci (our refcti) is to try to algorithmically form the place structure. krefu has the structure x1 is the x3rd recurrence of abstraction x2. By being a recurrence, it suggests that the x2 is the identical event. I think we then see a scope issue on the loaf of bread. If scoped outside of the predicate, I think it forces a single piece of bread, even if it is an indefinite. So the question becomes whether the scope of a sumti in the abstraction place is limited to the place or global to the sentence. We probably never ruled on this, but someone would have to check the place structure chapter of the reference grammar. I suspect that the answer might utilize the choice between "eat-recur" vs "recur-eat" as to determining which scope takes precedence. lojbab ---- lojbab lojbab@lojban.org Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc. 2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA 703-385-0273 Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org (newly updated!) --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- Shabang.com is the place to get your FREE eStore, Absolutely FREE Forever. If you have any desires to sell your products or services online, or you want to expand your customer base for FREE, Come check out Shabang.com FREE eStores. Click Here ------------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe, send mail to lojban-unsubscribe@onelist.com