From sentto-44114-2114-mark=kli.org@returns.onelist.com Wed Mar 01 19:28:30 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: shoulson-kli@meson.org Received: (qmail 25965 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2000 19:28:26 -0000 Received: from zash.lupine.org (205.186.156.18) by pi.meson.org with SMTP; 1 Mar 2000 19:28:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 20706 invoked by uid 40001); 1 Mar 2000 19:32:01 -0000 Delivered-To: kli-mark@kli.org Received: (qmail 20703 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2000 19:32:00 -0000 Received: from hj.egroups.com (208.48.218.12) by zash.lupine.org with SMTP; 1 Mar 2000 19:32:00 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-44114-2114-mark=kli.org@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.10.36] by hj.egroups.com with NNFMP; 01 Mar 2000 19:31:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 1625 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2000 19:31:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 1 Mar 2000 19:31:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (216.33.241.184) by mta1.onelist.com with SMTP; 1 Mar 2000 19:31:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 35177 invoked by uid 0); 1 Mar 2000 19:31:37 -0000 Message-ID: <20000301193137.35176.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 200.41.247.51 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Wed, 01 Mar 2000 11:31:36 PST X-Originating-IP: [200.41.247.51] To: lojban@onelist.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list lojban@onelist.com; contact lojban-owner@onelist.com Delivered-To: mailing list lojban@onelist.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 11:31:36 PST X-eGroups-From: "Jorge Llambias" From: "Jorge Llambias" Subject: Re: [lojban] Sets etc. Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: "Jorge Llambias" la pycyn cusku di'e >Finally, a class may >be viewed collectively, and then the properties attributed to it have >little >to do with the properties of the individual but rather with matters like >how >many there are of them And yet, it is possible to think that being one is a property the individual, like having a certain weight. Then the cardinality of the mass is really the mathematical sum of this property of the individuals. So even this very settish property is applicable to masses. >or (more related to their proerties) what toher >classes they belong to -- cardinality, inclusion, and the like -- set >theoretic properties, in short, which only rarely have value in ordinary >discourse. And when they may have value it is not hard to find the mass equivalent: le'i cinfo cu klesi le'i mabru The set of lions is a subset of the set of mammals. lei cinfo cu klesi lei mabru The lions are a subclass of mammals. Are we saying anything different, or less clear? This is not to deny that sets have their uses for logicians and mathematicians but just to insist on what little use they have for ordinary Lojbanists or ordinary speakers of any language. >For the most part, then, the use of the set markers is, like all of MEX, in >the system >because someday we may want to talk mathematics, the most recognizable >special >language system within our (and every) language. But other languages don't have special grammar rules to talk mathematics, do they? Is it really believable that fluent Lojbanists will be inclined to talk mathematics in what looks like some strange code from the point of view of everyday Lojban? >As for JCB's lo -- it was a muddle and everyone -- even JCB -- knew it was >a >muddle of half a dozen different ideas floating around in his head. Yes, that's what it looked like to me too, from what I read. >I think >we now have most of them sorted out in Lojban, though we still seem to get >into fights over a few from time to time (and pretty generally, having >forgetten how we solved it the last time, come up with the opposite >solution >the next). Yes, but the fights are worth it. They are not identical each time. I think we learn something from them collectively, if not individually... co'o mi'e xorxes ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------ GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds! Get rates as low as 0.0% Intro APR and no hidden fees. Apply NOW! http://click.egroups.com/1/969/1/_/17627/_/951939097/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe, send mail to lojban-unsubscribe@onelist.com