From sentto-44114-2122-mark=kli.org@returns.onelist.com Thu Mar 02 01:59:54 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: shoulson-kli@meson.org Received: (qmail 26546 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2000 01:59:53 -0000 Received: from zash.lupine.org (205.186.156.18) by pi.meson.org with SMTP; 2 Mar 2000 01:59:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 5294 invoked by uid 40001); 2 Mar 2000 02:03:42 -0000 Delivered-To: kli-mark@kli.org Received: (qmail 5291 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2000 02:03:40 -0000 Received: from c3.egroups.com (208.48.218.20) by zash.lupine.org with SMTP; 2 Mar 2000 02:03:40 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-44114-2122-mark=kli.org@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.10.36] by c3.egroups.com with NNFMP; 02 Mar 2000 02:03:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 15568 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2000 02:03:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 2 Mar 2000 02:03:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (216.33.241.58) by mta1.onelist.com with SMTP; 2 Mar 2000 02:03:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 76540 invoked by uid 0); 2 Mar 2000 02:03:36 -0000 Message-ID: <20000302020336.76539.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 200.41.247.56 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Wed, 01 Mar 2000 18:03:36 PST X-Originating-IP: [200.41.247.56] To: lojban@onelist.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list lojban@onelist.com; contact lojban-owner@onelist.com Delivered-To: mailing list lojban@onelist.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 18:03:36 PST X-eGroups-From: "Jorge Llambias" From: "Jorge Llambias" Subject: Re: [lojban] Sets etc. Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: "Jorge Llambias" la djan cusku di'e >Sets can be sliced into members in only one way: masses, in many >different ways. {ko'a joi ko'e} can only have two members, ko'a and ko'e. {lei pano mlatu} can only have 10 members, each of the cats. Maybe some masses can be sliced in different ways, but I can't think of any example. Unless you are thinking of things like {lo djacu} as a mass, but that is not a mass in the grammatical sense. > > I'll give it a shot. Let's use {girzu} for "club", and > > {mulgirzu} for "final club". This should work: > > > > ca'e ro da poi girzu cu mulgirzu > > I define: Every club is a final club. > > > > I think that is the only way that what you called a > > definition can really define final clubs. > >This definition is too inclusive. Here's an example. > >Membership in Club A does not preclude membership in any club. >Membership in Club B precludes membership in every other club. >Membership in Club C precludes membership in Club D. >Membership in Club D precludes membership in Club A. >Membership in Club E precludes membership in Clubs A and C. >There are no other clubs. Obviously I misunderstood the definition. I thought that "a club such that membership in it precludes membership in any other final club" was a description of a final club for a given state of students being members of clubs. I took "precludes" as descriptive of a situation, not as a membership rule of the club! I thought, for example, that any club with no members was a final club, not because of any internal rule of the club but because membership in it trivially precludes membership in any other club, and thus in every final club. But then consider this other example: Membership in Club X precludes membership in Club Y. Membership in Club Y precludes membership in Club X. Membership in Club Z precludes membership in Club W. Membership in Club W precludes membership in Club Z. There are no other clubs. Here either X and Y are final, or Z and W are final, but not both. So in this case the definition is not a real definition. It is not enough to tell us which clubs are final. So the definition of final club has to preclude some sets of membership rules like the one above to be a real definition. What is Quine's answer? That there is no non-circular definition? co'o mi'e xorxes ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------ GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds! Get rates as low as 0.0% Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR and no hidden fees. Apply NOW! http://click.egroups.com/1/937/1/_/17627/_/951962617/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe, send mail to lojban-unsubscribe@onelist.com