From sentto-44114-2184-mark=kli.org@returns.onelist.com Fri Mar 03 22:36:47 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: shoulson-kli@meson.org Received: (qmail 30163 invoked from network); 3 Mar 2000 22:36:46 -0000 Received: from zash.lupine.org (205.186.156.18) by pi.meson.org with SMTP; 3 Mar 2000 22:36:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 27042 invoked by uid 40001); 3 Mar 2000 22:36:48 -0000 Delivered-To: kli-mark@kli.org Received: (qmail 27039 invoked from network); 3 Mar 2000 22:36:47 -0000 Received: from hk.egroups.com (208.48.218.13) by zash.lupine.org with SMTP; 3 Mar 2000 22:36:47 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-44114-2184-mark=kli.org@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.10.38] by hk.egroups.com with NNFMP; 03 Mar 2000 22:36:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 1461 invoked from network); 3 Mar 2000 22:36:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 3 Mar 2000 22:36:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (216.33.241.131) by mta2.onelist.org with SMTP; 3 Mar 2000 22:36:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 26546 invoked by uid 0); 3 Mar 2000 22:36:34 -0000 Message-ID: <20000303223634.26545.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 200.41.247.41 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Fri, 03 Mar 2000 14:36:34 PST X-Originating-IP: [200.41.247.41] To: lojban@onelist.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list lojban@onelist.com; contact lojban-owner@onelist.com Delivered-To: mailing list lojban@onelist.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 14:36:34 PST X-eGroups-From: "Jorge Llambias" From: "Jorge Llambias" Subject: Re: [lojban] final clubs Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: "Jorge Llambias" > > >Suppose we have the following situation: > > >Club A imposes no conditions on its members > > >Club B requires members to swear a loyalty oath, > > > and to swear no other oaths > > >Club C requires members to swear a loyalty oath, > > > and to swear no other oaths > > > > > How can you tell in that example that it is B and C that > > are final, and not that A is the only final club? > >B and C are final because they fit the recursive definition >of 'final club': membership in one member of the set precludes >membership in any other member of that set. The set of >final clubs is a mutually exclusive set. Only if you start by assuming that B and C are final! I agree you get a consistent answer. But start by assuming that A is the only final one. Then neither B nor C are final (they don't fit the definition) while A does. The two answers are possible. >A is not final because A does not preclude membership in >any other club, and therefore does not meet the definition. The definition calls for precluding membership in other *final* clubs. There are no other final clubs, so A trivially meets the definition. >(Also, the definition of 'final club' implies that there must >be more than one final club so that there is something to >preclude!) Well, we can have the debate on whether universals have existential import all over again! :) If the definition requires at least two final clubs, then I agree that not all clubs need be final. Then I must modify my definition. The situation must be such that all clubs that preclude membership must preclude membership in every club that precludes membership. A final club is then defined as any club with some preclusion. The proof is similar to the case without existential import. Obviously clubs with no preclusions can only be final if they are the only final club. A counterexample in this case would require a situation in which there is a non-final club with some preclusion rule. co'o mi'e xorxes ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------ GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds! Get rates as low as 0.0% Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR and no hidden fees. Apply NOW! http://click.egroups.com/1/937/1/_/17627/_/952123002/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe, send mail to lojban-unsubscribe@onelist.com