To: Jorge Llambias <jjllambias@hotmail.com>
cc: lojban@onelist.com
In-Reply-To: <20000303220727.41702.qmail@hotmail.com>
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Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 17:23:51 -0500 (EST)
From: Invent Yourself <xod@sixgirls.org>
Subject: Re: [lojban] final clubs
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From: Invent Yourself <xod@sixgirls.org>

On Fri, 3 Mar 2000, Jorge Llambias wrote:

> From: "Jorge Llambias" <jjllambias@hotmail.com>
> 
> 
> > > >Club A imposes no conditions on its members
> > > >Club B requires members to swear a loyalty oath,
> > > >        and to swear no other oaths
> > > >Club C requires members to swear a loyalty oath,
> > > >        and to swear no other oaths
> > >
> > > How can you tell in that example that it is B and C that
> > > are final, and not that A is the only final club?
> 
> la xod cusku di'e
> 
> >Because you can't be a member of B and C, unless you join them
> >simultaneously. If A was final and {B, C} were not, you could join both B
> >and C.
> 
> Sorry, I don't understand. A can be final by itself:
> Membership in A precludes membership in any other
> final club (which happen to be none).


A imposes no conditions. If A were the only final club, it would have
to impose the condition of not joining any other final clubs that should
arise later.

But {B, C} forbid joining final clubs, according to the oath promising to
swear no other oaths. So they are final.

If you want to try to create a final club that doesn't swear any oaths,
that goes against the definition. The mirror case is not valid.

> Membership in B or C does not preclude membership
> in A, which is the only final club, so they are not
> final clubs. This is consistent with the definition
> of final clubs. You cannot join both B and C, but
> that is not enough to make them final.
> 
> Of course, B and C being final and A not final is
> also consistent. That is why final clubs are not well
> defined in this situation. We have two possible
> answers.
> 
> co'o mi'e xorxes
> 
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