From sentto-44114-2201-mark=kli.org@returns.onelist.com Sat Mar 04 15:36:10 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: shoulson-kli@meson.org Received: (qmail 31235 invoked from network); 4 Mar 2000 15:36:08 -0000 Received: from zash.lupine.org (205.186.156.18) by pi.meson.org with SMTP; 4 Mar 2000 15:36:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 24844 invoked by uid 40001); 4 Mar 2000 15:36:13 -0000 Delivered-To: kli-mark@kli.org Received: (qmail 24837 invoked from network); 4 Mar 2000 15:36:12 -0000 Received: from hl.egroups.com (208.48.218.14) by zash.lupine.org with SMTP; 4 Mar 2000 15:36:12 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-44114-2201-mark=kli.org@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.10.38] by hl.egroups.com with NNFMP; 04 Mar 2000 15:36:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 13668 invoked from network); 4 Mar 2000 15:36:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 4 Mar 2000 15:36:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO stmpy.cais.net) (199.0.216.101) by mta2.onelist.org with SMTP; 4 Mar 2000 15:36:06 -0000 Received: from bob (dynamic94.cl7.cais.net [205.177.20.94]) by stmpy.cais.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA10459 for ; Sat, 4 Mar 2000 10:35:15 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000303165928.00a204a0@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: vir1036/pop.cais.com@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 To: lojban@onelist.com In-Reply-To: <20000302162528.88749.qmail@hotmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list lojban@onelist.com; contact lojban-owner@onelist.com Delivered-To: mailing list lojban@onelist.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 17:17:28 -0500 X-eGroups-From: "Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" From: "Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" Subject: Re: [lojban] cultural rafsi fu'ivla Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: "Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" At 04:25 PM 03/02/2000 +0000, marios cmavirn wrote: >.i la lojbab cusku di'e: > >I am not sure what you would define as the "Caribbean" culture. This is not denying that there is one, merely saying that I am not sure what it is. In part because it is not clear what the boundaries are. The Bahamas are not in the Caribbean Sea; are they part of the Caribbean culture? The Florida keys are; are they part of the Caribbean culture? (You answer this below in terms of the people of the culture itself, but we did not choose gismu on that basis). With other culture gismu we have some societal conventions that draw clear if arbitrary lines (but even then I recognize that the arbitrariness is a potential problem). >I would really suggest to leave >the question of wether a culture can identify as such up to the culture in >question, and use this standard where these specific cultural fu'ivla are >concerned. That seems reasonable, especially for fu'ivla. > I looked up ropno, bemro and xazdo in the gismu list which says: >"x1 reflects European culture/nationality/geography/Indo-European languages >in aspect x2" . Bemro: "x1 reflects North American culture/ nationality/ >geography in aspect x2". Even xazdo: x1 reflects Asiatic >culture/nationality/geography in aspect x2. Can you imagine that the same >way you look at us from up there, from down here I might question the >existence of a common culture between US, Canadians and Mexicans. So let's >not go there. I agree, but I don't claim that there is a common culture to any of the above. The "cultural gismu" are not limited to culture, as is evident in the definition. The choice of which divisions of the world got gismu was arbitrary, based on geographical divisions and key languages and population, and was flawed at that. >Geographically there is an ambiguity as the Antillean >archipelago forms one arch from Cuba in the northwest through Trinidad in >the south-east to Aruba in the southwest, but some islands are >geographically part of south-america while others are considered part of >north-america. The Bahamas are outside of the Caribbean arch, but consider >themselves Caribbean. Same goes for the coastal countries of Belize and the >Guyanas and for the Caribbean coasts of Venezuela, Colombia and Central >America. in most Caribbean countries a European country may be the official >language, but the mother tongue of most people is a creole. At least 16 >independent countries label themselves foremost as Caribbean and not as >north-american, or hispanic. Shows something about education, since here in the US, they call the islands the "West Indies", consider all of them part of North America, and would not consider any of the coastal countries any more Caribbean than any other. Indeed I am not sure why Belize and Guyana fit other than by exclusion from "Hispanic-America", whereas the other Central American states and the Yucatan do not. >In the Caribbean we are accustomed to people from outside telling us what >we are and should be. I don't worry about that. I just think that as lojban >community we should strive maybe not that much for cultural neutrality, as >that's a hard one, but more for pluriformity, as more southerners like me >start joining up. Pluriformity is welcomed. lojbab ---- lojbab lojbab@lojban.org Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc. 2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA 703-385-0273 Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org (newly updated!) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds! Get rates as low as 0.0% Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR and no hidden fees. Apply NOW! http://click.egroups.com/1/937/1/_/17627/_/952184170/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe, send mail to lojban-unsubscribe@onelist.com