From sentto-44114-2448-mark=kli.org@returns.onelist.com Tue Apr 25 08:57:47 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: shoulson-kli@meson.org Received: (qmail 1538 invoked from network); 25 Apr 2000 08:57:45 -0000 Received: from zash.lupine.org (205.186.156.18) by pi.meson.org with SMTP; 25 Apr 2000 08:57:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 8521 invoked by uid 40001); 25 Apr 2000 08:57:50 -0000 Delivered-To: kli-mark@kli.org Received: (qmail 8518 invoked from network); 25 Apr 2000 08:57:50 -0000 Received: from c3.egroups.com (207.138.41.143) by zash.lupine.org with SMTP; 25 Apr 2000 08:57:50 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-44114-2448-mark=kli.org@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.10.37] by c3.egroups.com with NNFMP; 25 Apr 2000 08:57:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 29124 invoked from network); 25 Apr 2000 08:57:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 25 Apr 2000 08:57:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO qh.egroups.com) (10.1.2.28) by mta2 with SMTP; 25 Apr 2000 08:57:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 11954 invoked from network); 25 Apr 2000 08:57:46 -0000 Received: from imo-d02.mx.aol.com (205.188.157.34) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 25 Apr 2000 08:57:46 -0000 Received: from Pycyn@aol.com by imo-d02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v25.3.) id a.9b.42178e1 (4425) for ; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 04:57:39 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <9b.42178e1.2636b803@aol.com> To: lojban@egroups.com X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 33 From: pycyn@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list lojban@egroups.com; contact lojban-owner@egroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list lojban@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 04:57:39 EDT Subject: [lojban] RECORD: fu'ivla Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit fu'ivla While it hardly seems that we are at a point where stage 3 or 4 fu'ivla are needed in the language generally, people do find the need arising out of the peculiarities of their lives -- especially for national/cultural words. The first question that arises in these cases is, why not a gismu, like the odd assortment we already have? The odd assortment arises from the major (in size or population or prestige) countries where the languages on which lojban is based are spoken, though some of the inclusions and omisssions are rather arbitrary. The rest of the world is meant to be covered (and some places recovered) by regional terms, but the coverage leaves both cultural and linguistic features unexpressed (or incorrectly covered). Hence there is a need, if you deal with an area a lot, for the fu'ivla but little justification for gismu (unless you make a case for a country that speaks a base language has been wrongfully omitted). Then how to build the right form? For either level 3 or 4 you need a word that meets a set of tests and, in addition, is acceptable/recognizable by/ based upon the native usage. There is also some nod in the direction of international recognition as well (something related to Korea {kori,e} rather than Chosen {djocen}, although the latter is the native preference, for example). In some cases, this leaves only small problems: Turkey is t*rki,@ and the only problems are whether * is u - as it is generally written in roman letters - or i - the nearest thing in Lojban to its pronounced for, IPA /y/ - and whether @ is a or e, following different senses of pronunciation, etymology, and the like. (For the country name there is the further question of the final consonant, the "regular (habitual)" s, an etymological t or x, or an arbitrary one to break the habit. With a notion like Caribean, where the limits of the cultural area are unclear even and surely embrace several langauges and several scoops of countries, the problems multiply. Carib (and why not the Arawak, anyway?) does not offer an obvious form: karib => krib, kraib, karb, kairb. And whose preference do we follow? The suggestion that perhaps a lujvo is more approriate here runs into the problem that the area is conceptualized in so many ways that each suggestion is culturally (and politically) suspect -- and generally geologically flawed as well. The person who wants a word of this sort is, thus, left to his own devices -- make one up that obeys the rules and then defend it when attacked (or modify it) . It is not going to be "official" in any case for a while, since no one "official" is keeping records of what fu'ivla are being used. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 70% off on thousands of products - come to uBid.com http://click.egroups.com/1/3028/2/_/17627/_/956653067/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe, send mail to lojban-unsubscribe@onelist.com