From sentto-44114-2449-mark=kli.org@returns.onelist.com Tue Apr 25 15:22:42 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: shoulson-kli@meson.org Received: (qmail 1938 invoked from network); 25 Apr 2000 15:22:41 -0000 Received: from zash.lupine.org (205.186.156.18) by pi.meson.org with SMTP; 25 Apr 2000 15:22:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 18434 invoked by uid 40001); 25 Apr 2000 15:22:46 -0000 Delivered-To: kli-mark@kli.org Received: (qmail 18431 invoked from network); 25 Apr 2000 15:22:45 -0000 Received: from c3.egroups.com (207.138.41.143) by zash.lupine.org with SMTP; 25 Apr 2000 15:22:45 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-44114-2449-mark=kli.org@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.10.38] by c3.egroups.com with NNFMP; 25 Apr 2000 15:22:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 12280 invoked from network); 25 Apr 2000 15:22:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 25 Apr 2000 15:22:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.www-service.de) (212.77.161.16) by mta1 with SMTP; 25 Apr 2000 15:22:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 7487 invoked from network); 25 Apr 2000 15:22:36 -0000 Received: from p3e9eb9c1.dip.t-dialin.net (HELO frilix.rus.ger.com) (62.158.185.193) by smtp.www-service.de with SMTP; 25 Apr 2000 15:22:36 -0000 Received: from kipnis (kipnis.rus.ger.com [193.27.25.34]) by frilix.rus.ger.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA20622 for ; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 17:20:46 +0200 Message-ID: <08ec01bfaec8$c99f0f40$22191bc1@rus.ger.com> To: References: <033001bfa943$aaf2b900$22191bc1@rus.ger.com> <3903B103.E59C32F@concentric.net> Organization: R+S Reengineering und Softwaredesign GmbH X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Daniel Gudlat" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list lojban@egroups.com; contact lojban-owner@egroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list lojban@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 17:13:17 +0200 Reply-To: "Daniel Gudlat" Subject: Re: [lojban] Sex words Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit la brukcr. cusku di'e > la kuot. Daniel Gudlat kuot. cusku di'e > > la pycyn. cusku di'e > > Disclaimer: I'm far from an expert in lojban, but I'll take a stab at > > it. > > A superfluous statement, I think :-) We're all learning here. I gather as much, but I've been doing so for less than two months, hence the disclaimer... > > > Some words suggested, in need of definitions, explication, general > > tidying. > > > Brook Conner: > > > glependo - "fuck-buddy" (but no derogatory connotations [makes "fuck" > > a bad > > > choice in English -- gletu has none in Lojban, pc]) > > > gletu pendo > > Yes - that's why "fuck-buddy" was in quotes. It has an idiomatic use, > especially among sexual minorities (gay, bisexual, bdsm, polyamory, etc) > as a friend with whom you have sex, but does not imply any sort of > loving relationship or commitment or such. Incidentally, that was exactly the meaning I took it to have, being unaware of any other slang/jargon/whatever meaning of the word. > > In English, like in most western languages, words describing things > > sexual in nature either have derogatory connotations or are > > clinical/medical in nature. So "fuck-buddy" for a "sexual-intercourse > > type-of friend" is as good as anything you may possibly come up with. > > Agreed - it's why I was trying out lojban for these words in the first > place - I've found most English words to either imply things you don't > mean to (i.e., are overly specific) or to omit things you mean to > include (i.e., are overly vague). la lojban. has the nice characteristic > (which lojbab really drove home for me, I think when I first posted > this) of being exactly as vague as you want to be. Which sounds like an > oxymoron, but is exactly what I'm looking for... This is one of the qualities that got me interested in lojban in the first place: you can be exactly as vague as you deem it fit to be, and whoever you communicate with should be absolutely clear about the degree of vagueness involved. > > > cinprami - "sexualove" (?lover?pc) > > > cinse prami > > > > I agree with pc, this would be a "sexual lover" (gismu list: x1 loves > > x2, not **x1 is a love...) > > Again, exactly what I meant - a "sexualove" can refer either to a person > or a state. "sexualove" in quotes is more jargon, argot, this time > specifically from the book "Polyamory" by Dr. Deborah Anapol. Of course, > she spends a fair amount of time explaining the word before using it. Yes, "sexualove" can refer to a person as well as a state, but from what I understand of english grammar rules I'd say that the person referred to by the word "sexualove" would be "le se cinprami" in lojban, the 2nd sumti place, no? > Actually, wouldn't "mi cinprami do" translate equally well as "I am a > sexual-lover of you" and "I sexually-love you"? You'd need cmavo to make > clear which one you meant, wouldn't you? The two are equivalent, aren't they? > > > pamgle - loving intercourse > > > pamygletu - [same] > > > prami gletu > > > > And by the same rules, this would be a "loving intercourse-haver". I > > image you'd need an event abstractor to get to the suggested meanings, > > but then, I haven't yet started working through the lujvo making > > rules... > > Again, see above. I think, without the cmavo, it could be translated in > English either way. "nu pamgle" is clearly an event, but "mi nu pamgle > do" could mean "I have loving intercourse with you" or "I > am-in-the-event-of loving intercourse with you". I would translate it as "I am-the-event-of loving-intercourse with you"... > The lojban could mean > either repetitive action or a singular event (and would require more > cmavo for more specificity). Like oh crap, what's that word for the > grammatical structure for repeated action - russian uses it - it's a > distinction English doesn't make really at all (you need ancillary > phrases to convey it) and lojban conveys or not, depending on the cmavo present. The difference between, e.g. russian "yekhat" (ye, kha, a, te, soft sign) and "yezdit" (ye, ze, de, i, te, soft sign) (where is the nls when you need it?), the former signifying a one time event, the latter a habit/repetition. Like you said, as with all things, lojban (as opposed to loglan) leaves those open unless specified. Ummm, where were we? > > > pedgle - friendly intercourse > > > pe'ogle - [same] > > > pe'ogletu - [same] > > > pedgletu - [same] > > > pendo gletu > > > > As a verb, yes. Again, strictly speaking this is a "friendly > > intercourser", or am I missing something with these tanru/lujvo? "mi > > pedgle do" would be "I friendly-fuck you", right? > > Again, I think it's a matter of the cmavo around it. My point exactly. :-) > > > malpe'o fuck (presumably, fuck3, since pendo has not implication of > > > intercourse, pc) > > > > I tentatively agree: "derogatory friend" would presumably come close to > > the idea of "They are fucking their paying customers" when this is > > uttered anywhere but inside a whore house. ;-) > > Or, as in the colloquial (American) English, "Fucker", when used to > refer to a friend. As in "Hey, fucker, how are you doing?" No literal > sexual intercourse is really implied in the English - it's like > "bonehead" being used in a similar situation. The insult is not literal > (in English). Doesn't really apply in lojban, AFAI understand. You could conceivably say "coi doi la malpe'on." meaning "Greetings, you who I name derogatory-friend" but where would be the sense in that? (unless the person likes to call himself that) > In lojban, it seems a bit clearer that the "malpe'o" in question has > somehow done something wrong by you. As in referring to someone who's > spreading rumors behind your back "That fucker is spreading lies about > me!" "la malpe'o .... etc." That would be the most proper meaning in lojban, if I understand correctly. > > > gletu appears to need some clarification, given the range of > > activities that > > > these (and the following) words suggest as possibly under it (oral? > > anal? > > > digital (yes, including big toes or the athletically inclined)? "clit > > > bumping"? mechanical? self? -- I assume that these will make cases > > of > > > German shepherds and sheep clear). > > > > I'm German, but I know neither the shepherds nor the sheep nor their > > cases. Care to enlighten me? > > Um, not on this list :-) I suggest looking up "zoophilia" (and while > you're at it, go for "coprophilia" too, just to get the breadth of > activity covered by (some peoples') sexual activity - but don't ask me > for help - not particularly my brand of kink). Nor mine, either. Concerning the lookup: BTDTGTTS, it's not easy to shock me... > Personally, I would, in general, favor the broadest possible > interpretation of the base gismu, so long as no gismu becomes synonymous > with any other. If you want specificity, use more (presumably > clarifying) words. My sentiments exactly. > > Once this view has been taken, the rest would become a question of > > building the proper tanru/lujvo: > > "moklu gletu" mouth-kind-of sexing, oral sex > > "ganxo gletu" anus-kind-of sexing, anal sex > > "degji gletu" finger/toe-kind-of sexing, digital sex > > would probably do the trick, or have I missed any pitfalls? If you > > They're still somewhat vague (as I see it), but again, that's the issue > : the base gismu are broad, and the more words you add, the more > specific it gets. E.g., moklu ganxo gletu ("rim job", roughly). They are about as vague as their English counterparts: "anal sex" actually covers severel different things, although it does have a "default" meaning of penile-anal sex. In lojban, I'd rather have the words as broad as sensible, you can easily add more precision later, if you so desire. co'o mi'e daniel -- Daniel "Gudy" Gudlat d.gudlat@rpluss.com No one pays me enough to speak for them, so I only speak for myself. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Good friends, school spirit, hair-dos you'd like to forget. Classmates.com has them all. And with 4.4 million alumni already registered, there's a good chance you'll find your friends here: http://click.egroups.com/1/2885/2/_/17627/_/956676164/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe, send mail to lojban-unsubscribe@onelist.com