From sentto-44114-2391-mark=kli.org@returns.onelist.com Fri Apr 14 23:29:28 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: shoulson-kli@meson.org Received: (qmail 19069 invoked from network); 14 Apr 2000 23:29:27 -0000 Received: from zash.lupine.org (205.186.156.18) by pi.meson.org with SMTP; 14 Apr 2000 23:29:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 24893 invoked by uid 40001); 15 Apr 2000 00:30:38 -0000 Delivered-To: kli-mark@kli.org Received: (qmail 24890 invoked from network); 15 Apr 2000 00:30:38 -0000 Received: from mr.egroups.com (208.50.144.80) by zash.lupine.org with SMTP; 15 Apr 2000 00:30:38 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-44114-2391-mark=kli.org@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.10.36] by mr.egroups.com with NNFMP; 15 Apr 2000 00:30:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 15940 invoked from network); 15 Apr 2000 00:30:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 15 Apr 2000 00:30:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO stmpy.cais.net) (205.252.14.63) by mta1 with SMTP; 15 Apr 2000 00:30:28 -0000 Received: from bob (31.dynamic.cais.com [207.226.56.31]) by stmpy.cais.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA12766 for ; Fri, 14 Apr 2000 20:29:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000414200204.00aa4a10@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: vir1036/pop.cais.com@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 To: lojban@onelist.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list lojban@egroups.com; contact lojban-owner@egroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list lojban@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 20:22:58 -0400 X-eGroups-From: "Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" From: "Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" Subject: Re: [lojban] Bringing it about that Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At 05:01 AM 04/13/2000 -0400, pycyn@aol.com wrote: >A second matter was the third place of mukti (and some other of the words in >this collection?) event x1 motivates event x2 in volition of x3. Since x2 is >presumably an even in which the agent is the one who's volition is involved, >x3 repeats the subject of the description in x2, usually at least. These >place structures are baselined and immutable until some future date, but we >might consider reconsidering these cases at that date. They seem to arise >from English (etc., but we know what most of the founding members spoke) >expressions A motivates B to do C, which is taken to be a 3-place relation, >even though most good grammars of English (etc.) recognize it as only >2-place, the second place being an infinitive sentence "B to do C". Of >course, both pieces function separately A motivates B, A motivates Cing: the >raised subject and the suppressed subject respectively. At least, until >reconsideration, we might well drop the use of the thrid place. > >And back to the original problem. I used to advocate a predicate "x1 brings >it about that event x2 by doing event x3." I now notice that, except >rhetorically, this is another case of duplicating the subject of an event >description. There is, however, no obvious predicate in Lojban that does >this in the properly vague way, so that the original sentence is still >untranslatable in its full obscurity. Nora notes that there is a specific place where it is important to raise one sumti out of x2 into x3, and that is where there is are multiple possible motivees amongst the places of x2. She used the example "Fred motivates (lenu) Rick kissing Alice" and the choice of x3 might indicate whether it was Rick, Alice, or both who were motivated into that x2 event. Nora thus agrees with me that mukti is like gasnu and zukte. In particular, mukti is talking about the motives for someone, presumably the agent, of the event x2. But x2 may be an event wherein it is not necessarily clear who the agent is, and thus it fits the pattern of gasnu and zukte in which the explicit raising is to identify the filler of the agentive role, a role that does not exist in all predicates, and which is semantically ambiguous in others (such as cinba and gletu). lojbab ---- lojbab lojbab@lojban.org Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc. 2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA 703-385-0273 Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org (newly updated!) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ High rates giving you headaches? The 0% APR Introductory Rate from Capital One. 9.9% Fixed thereafter! http://click.egroups.com/1/3010/2/_/17627/_/955758636/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe, send mail to lojban-unsubscribe@onelist.com