To: lojban@egroups.com
Message-ID: <8gr4rj+pmal@eGroups.com>
In-Reply-To: <20000527232558.57533.qmail@hotmail.com>
User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82
From: "=?iso-8859-1?q?Alfred_W._T=FCting?=" <Ti@fa-kuan.muc.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Mailing-List: list lojban@egroups.com; contact lojban-owner@egroups.com
Precedence: bulk
Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 12:53:07 -0000
Subject: [lojban] Re: coi rodo - mi'e .aulun.
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Length: 4125
Lines: 82

xorxes and pycyn(?),

I must admit that initially, I sided with Hui-tzu (the more
'reasonable'), but I see that Chuang-tzu is much better.
Analyzing their dispute, we cannot cling to mere semantic (at least
not based on the English translation, which BTW doesn't seem to=20
bad). One has to get the sense expressed in the original version:
Hui-tzu is asking: (BIG5)"=80=A0=A0=A4l=80=A0=A0=ABD=80=A0=A0=B3=BD=A1A=80=
=A0=A0=A6w=80=A0=A0=AA=BE=B3=BD=A4=A7=BC=D6=A1S" (zi
fei yu, an zhi yu zhi le?) "You are not a fish, how (can) you know
the fish=20
being happy? You see, the "how (can)" is similar to the English
version, but the very sense of this rethorical question translates:
1) Everbody knows that there is no means to get knowledge about the
feelings of somebody/something not being yourself (so there's=20
no way to know about the feelings of fishes unless being a fish
yourself).
2) Will you (Chuang) really tell me you're a fish!!! If not, what
other sources perhaps can you have to get this knowledge! So,=20
assuming you don't, I *know* (according this logic we both are
sharing!) that you cannot, hence infact do not know.

Now, Chuang-tzu is playful enough to step on Hui-tzu's own platform
(premise - see #1) easily demonstrating that, starting from=20
this and using the same logic they both are sharing, Hui-tzu infact
deductively cannot *know* what somebody not being Hui-tzu=20
himself really *knows*. Chuang herby does not really accept Hui-tzu's
premise #1, just wants to play with him - and after all=20
turns back to present his own platform (premise #2 - see below).=20
(Maybe, this excursion is bit kind of a piece of juggling too and=20
not too serious at all: not too obvious from the text always using
=80=A0=A0=AA=BE chi1 (=3Dknow), Chuang-tzu is mixing up "to know" and "to f=
eel"!=20
Because there might be a difference between "to know about the
*feelings* (of the fishes)" and "to know about the *knowledge* (of=20
Chuang about the feelings of fish)).
But then after this playful intermezzo, Chuang turns back to show his
own premise:
2) It is possible to know the feelings (etc.) of something/somebody
outside of yourself, because everything being part of nature i.e.=20
the 'ten thousand things' =80=A0=A0=B8U=80=A0=A0=AA=AB (wan wu) around you.=
 Hence, you
yourself also being part of the whole are sharing everything with it.=20
(A blade of grass falls to the ground, and everything - even  sun and
 moon - is moving along with it). From this philosphical=20
platform (Chuang-tzu is a Taoist, idealist, maybe subjectivist
=80=A0=A0=B0=DF=A4=DF=BD=D7 or =80=A0=A0=B0=DF=A7=DA=BD=D7 whereas Hui-tzu =
a rationalist/materialist
=80=A0=A0=B0=DF=B2z=80=A0=A0=BD=D7 or=20=20
=80=A0=A0=B0=DF=AA=AB=BD=D7).=20
These two different platforms each one of them start from, has
nothing to do with different logics rather than philosophies, I'd
say.=20
But somehow - Chuang, remaining unfazed,  has cut a finer picture
than Hui (maybe, only that the story was told by Chuang himself=20
as all we know about Hui goes back to Chuang!)
As for the "bridge": you should not say that that is no source of
knowledge. The original just says: =80=A0=A0=A7=DA=AA=BE=A4=A7*=80=A0=A0=C0=
=DA=A4W*=80=A0=A0=A4] (It was on
the=20
'Hao' that I knew...). Maybe you're right pointing to the 'event' of
being near/nearer/far to something  important for knowledge.

Considering Chuang's philosophical base, he is not at all arrogant
uttering: "asking me how I could know the fish are happy, you=20
yourself already knew that I knew, (and at the same time
anyway/therefore?) posing me your question..." (=80=A0
=A0=A4l=80=A0=A0=A4=EA=A1u=80=A0=A0=A6=BC=A6w=80=A0=A0=AA=BE=B3=BD=BC=D6=A1=
v=80=A0=A0=A4=AA
=80=A0=A0=AA=CC=A1A=80=A0=A0=ACJ=80=A0=A0=A4v=80=A0=A0=AA=BE=A7^=80=A0=A0=
=AA=BE=A4=A7=A6=D3=B0=DD=A7=DA...)

co'o mi'e .aulun.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
Old school buds here:
http://click.egroups.com/1/4057/3/_/17627/_/959518388/
------------------------------------------------------------------------

To unsubscribe, send mail to lojban-unsubscribe@onelist.com