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From: "=?iso-8859-1?q?Alfred_W._T=FCting?=" <Ti@fa-kuan.muc.de>
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Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 09:16:16 -0000
Subject: [lojban] Re: coi rodo - mi'e .aulun.
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--- In lojban@egroups.com, "Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" <lojbab@l...>
wrote:


> I could post this (and/or put it on the website).  Unfortunately,
this=20
> official mapping led to severe collision because so many pinyin
letters=20
> mapped to schwa; we also did not at the time understand how C+i
sounded=20
> (e.g. pinyin "zi"), though I have since had this clarified.

Would be interested in!

> If we had it to do over again, we would map "ong" to "on(g?)" and
not to=20
> "yn".=20

IMHO this mapping to lb: "yn" most probably is based on a
misunderstanding, maybe going back to pronunciation standards in=20
southern Chinese dialects like Cantonese: Mandarin (pinyin) -eng (lb:
-yn(g)) very often is pron. -ong (=3Dung) or -un in=20
southern dialects (e.g. BIG5 =C2=D7 pinyin: feng1, "fruitful/abundant"
in dialect is *written* and pronounced "fung" - pron. in=20
'virtual' pinyin about: fong -, or BIG5 =AD=B7 pinyin: feng1, "wind"
etc. in dialect written and pron. "fun" as in Cantonese taifun, BIG5=20
=A4j=AD=B7, pinyin: dafeng!)=20
Pinyin "-ong" should be transcribed to lb: "un(g)" *not* -yn (e.g.
mau.dzydun.)

> The g is questionable because Lojban maps the /ng/ consonant to=20
> /n/.  As someone noted, if the g is present it is pronounced
separately=20
> from the n.  But the real problem is that in gismu making we could
have=20
> ended up with the g and not the n in the Lojban word, and the g by
itself=20
> without the n is probably useless to a Chinese speaker for
recognition.

In Mandarin there can be no g-ending except in -ng, so this would not
necessarily lead to much misunderstanding to a Chinese=20
speaker familiar with lojbanization. BTW, in southern dialects, there
are lots of consonant endings, e.g. in Hakka language BIG5 =AB=C8
=AEa (=3DHakka or "guest families"), pinyin: ke4 jia1, it is "hag-ga".=20

One principle question:
For what reason cmene have to follow the strict rules of Lojban
phonology?? If it just were for computers to understand the=20
language, isn't it sufficient to enclose cmene (first of all personal
names etc.) in the structure beginning with the cmene indicators=20
"la" and the "."? Shouldn't it be the main goal to giving the reader
an idea of what the name word is pointing to and what's its=20
common/real pronunciation? So, e.g. writing la maozedong. (instead of
la mau.dzydun.) would function a lot better in this sense. Or,=20
writing the the cluster "ng" in (e.g. Chinese or German) names could
imply that it's not pronounced like in British/American=20
English as two separated consonants (Engl.: fin-ger, Germ.: Finger),
so the reader is not obliged to pronounce it the lb way.
In Glosa language, all 'foreign' words (like 'french', 'english'
etc.) had been 'incorporated' (i.e. left untouched). I wouldn't go
that=20
far, though.

co'o mi'e .aulun.


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Old school buds here:
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