From sentto-44114-2870-959504233-mark=kli.org@returns.onelist.com Sun May 28 08:55:54 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: shoulson-kli@meson.org Received: (qmail 25622 invoked from network); 28 May 2000 08:55:52 -0000 Received: from zash.lupine.org (205.186.156.18) by pi.meson.org with SMTP; 28 May 2000 08:55:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 10772 invoked by uid 40001); 28 May 2000 08:57:20 -0000 Delivered-To: kli-mark@kli.org Received: (qmail 10769 invoked from network); 28 May 2000 08:57:19 -0000 Received: from b05.egroups.com (207.138.41.189) by zash.lupine.org with SMTP; 28 May 2000 08:57:19 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-44114-2870-959504233-mark=kli.org@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.10.35] by b05.egroups.com with NNFMP; 28 May 2000 08:57:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 6349 invoked from network); 28 May 2000 08:57:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 28 May 2000 08:57:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d08.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.40) by mta2 with SMTP; 28 May 2000 08:57:12 -0000 Received: from Pycyn@aol.com by imo-d08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v27.9.) id a.43.55a1209 (4405) for ; Sun, 28 May 2000 04:57:05 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <43.55a1209.26623961@aol.com> To: lojban@egroups.com X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 41 From: pycyn@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list lojban@egroups.com; contact lojban-owner@egroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list lojban@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 04:57:05 EDT Subject: Re: [lojban] coi rodo - mi'e .aulun. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 00-05-27 19:26:31 EDT:xorxes writes: << la pycyn cusku di'e >An interesting analysis and one that is possible for Chuang but does not >make >much fun of Hui. Well, Hui falls in all the traps that Chuang sets up for him, so we shouldn't make fun.>> I prefer to think that Hui is led into a trap he himself set up -- but then I don't like him the way I like Chuang. <<>I would take it -- on the basis of this English, anyhow -- >that Chuang's win comes from his point that the original question was "HOW >do >you know?" and that that question only makes sense when it is agreed that >"you" DO know. Yes, but if Hui had asked {ju'apei} in Lojban, i.e. "what evidential are you using?" then he would not be agreeing that Chuang knows. But in that case, Chuang's answer would be overtly evasive, at least until he finally responds {se'o}, "I know internally". If they had been speaking Lojban instead of Chinese we would have been spared the parallelism stuff>> I guess arguments don't translate any better than jokes in some cases. The question Hui asks is literally "From where do you know that,"so that Chuang's final "From on the Hao Bridge" is a secondary shot at Hui (and one that clearly won't go into lb at all, since Hao Bridge would not work as even an information source, let alone a means to knowledge). This English is the first time I can remember seeing that "the way I feel" bit from Chuang, but it doesn't kill the central point. It is just not clear that asking how (in whatever way that is put) you do something does not entail that you do do it. It clearly does presuppose it in some contexts and that is enough for a good sophistry, as here. At worst, it suggests that you KNOW HOW to do it and that is almost as good. <<>Is it a strange claim that you have to be a just like another >person to really know what they think/feel? Chuang seems to accept it -- >indeed insist on it -- but it is not a win for him, only a draw. I think the more credible claim is that the more you are like another, the closer you will be to "knowing" what they think/feel. But they seem to deal in black and white, ignoring the different distances that might exist between Chuang and the fish and between Hui and Chuang. >> Well, Chuang, as a good proto-taoist, would probably maintain that he is a lot closer to fish in a river than he is to the very court-centrered Hui -- nature v. culture and all. But again, he does not chase down that line but returns to a better ploy. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Old school buds here: http://click.egroups.com/1/4057/3/_/17627/_/959504226/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe, send mail to lojban-unsubscribe@onelist.com