From araizen@newmail.net Fri Jun 30 00:04:26 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 4627 invoked from network); 30 Jun 2000 07:04:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 30 Jun 2000 07:04:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO NewMail.Net) (192.117.188.50) by mta1 with SMTP; 30 Jun 2000 07:04:25 -0000 Received: from NewMail.Net ([192.117.188.41]) by newmail.net ; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 10:00:58 +02:00 Sender: araizen@NewMail.Net Reply-to: araizen@NewMail.Net To: lojban@egroups.com Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 10:00:58 Gmt +2:00 Subject: Re: [lojban] Opposite of za'o Message-id: <395c61ca.15a.0@NewMail.Net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Adam Raizen" X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 3320 la xorxes cusku di'e >In principle, we can derive all four from any one of them >plus negation, so {za'o} should be enough: > >za'o = still >za'o na = still not = not yet >na za'o = "not still" = no longer >na za'o na = no longer not = already I think that "za'o" is a certain take on "still" & companions, and is often a good translation for it, but sometimes the event has not passed any kind of a potential end (whether natural or not) but nevertheless might be marked with "still" in English. In these cases you can use "co'unai" or "mo'unai" according to the context. Thus, in some circumstances, "co'u" and "mo'u" would be good translations for "no longer". I think that "pu'o" is generally a good translation for "not yet". Both say that the event has not yet started, and neither imply that the event will actually happen. Thus, "already" could sometimes be "na pu'o/pu'onai", "co'u na", or "mo'u na", but intuitively "already" doesn't contain any negation, as you pointed out, and I can't think of any one word for it. >I don't know whether {za'onai} is {na za'o}, as you propose, >or {za'o na}, or something else. I think that ZA'Onai is na ZA'O since to me this is most intuitive, and since 'nai' is supposed to be negating the ZA'O, and na ZA'O is a negated ZA'O, whereas ZA'O na is still a type of affirmative ZA'O. co'o mi'e adam _________________________________________ Protect your Computer from Viruses Sent via E-mail at http://www.mailcleaner.com