From sentto-44114-2984-960588874-mark=kli.org@returns.onelist.com Fri Jun 09 22:12:16 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: shoulson-kli@meson.org Received: (qmail 12251 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2000 22:12:14 -0000 Received: from zash.lupine.org (205.186.156.18) by pi.meson.org with SMTP; 9 Jun 2000 22:12:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 6537 invoked by uid 40001); 9 Jun 2000 22:14:39 -0000 Delivered-To: kli-mark@kli.org Received: (qmail 6534 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2000 22:14:39 -0000 Received: from ck.egroups.com (208.50.144.69) by zash.lupine.org with SMTP; 9 Jun 2000 22:14:39 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-44114-2984-960588874-mark=kli.org@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.10.38] by ck.egroups.com with NNFMP; 09 Jun 2000 22:14:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 29999 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2000 22:14:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 9 Jun 2000 22:14:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d02.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.34) by mta2 with SMTP; 9 Jun 2000 22:14:33 -0000 Received: from Pycyn@aol.com by imo-d02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v27.10.) id a.14.4b4e0b4 (3925) for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 18:14:31 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <14.4b4e0b4.2672c647@aol.com> To: lojban@egroups.com X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 41 From: pycyn@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list lojban@egroups.com; contact lojban-owner@egroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list lojban@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 18:14:31 EDT Subject: [lojban] Three loaves and a bagel Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Translated by Eugene Sklyanin, reevised under the guidance of the usual experts. [1] le nanmu cu xagji [2] .i te vecnu pa barda bliku be lo nanba gi'e citka [3] .i ku'i za'o xagji [4] .i te vecnu le remoi bliku gi'e citka [5] .i ku'i za'o xagji [6] .i te vecnu le cimoi bliku gi'e citka [7] .i ku'i za'o xagji [8] .i baku te vecnu loi cmalu djine nanba .ije ba le nu citka pa le djine kei co'u xagji [9] .i baku le nanmu cu darxi le stedu le xance gi'e cusku lu [10] .oi mi bebna [11] .i .uinai mi pu fesygau le ba'e so'i nanba ki'u ma [12] .i .ei mi pu gasnu le nu le pa cmalu djine cu pamoi le'i se citka be mi li'u [1] because we know which one we have in mind. The shift between the introductory "a" and the subsequent "the" in English is one of the hardest things for speakers of non-article languages to pick up. Lb can do this shift ( to ) but generally is better off using . Since the gender or the species is not really important here, someone suggested just , but give the proper anecdotal concreteness. [2] works here, because the numeration will play a role -- and, of course, we don't have a particular loaf in mind, other than it being the first he bought and ate. [3] because eating a big anything seems a natural end to hunger (arguable, but it seems to fit this story; "still" is as superfective as "keeps on"). I think the whole "but still" could be done with a tense connective, (?). [4] Much of the discussion was on how to say "ate another loaf of bread," to differentiate that from "ate the (same) loaf again ." The ordinals seem to do the job here. [8] suggests to me sweeping up a bunch of bagels (is this concept worth a lujvo from the get-go?) and makes the transition to "just one" harder. I like , but brings it implicitly to the bunch he just bought. The tense situation could be sharpened to or -- depending on the case -- [10] After all the missing subjects and objects, the is strange: simple would do as an observative. Among my head striking acquaintances this would be normal (though the expression would probably be /goice kof/, presumably to the same effect). [12] This seems very complex for "I ought to have eaten the bagel first," still doesn't quite do it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Buy Long Distance with your GROUP and SAVE!!! http://click.egroups.com/1/4123/3/_/17627/_/960588852/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe, send mail to lojban-unsubscribe@onelist.com