From sentto-44114-3222-961974898-mark=kli.org@returns.onelist.com Sun Jun 25 23:13:58 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: shoulson-kli@meson.org Received: (qmail 349 invoked from network); 25 Jun 2000 23:13:57 -0000 Received: from zash.lupine.org (205.186.156.18) by pi.meson.org with SMTP; 25 Jun 2000 23:13:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 9363 invoked by uid 40001); 25 Jun 2000 23:15:00 -0000 Delivered-To: kli-mark@kli.org Received: (qmail 9360 invoked from network); 25 Jun 2000 23:15:00 -0000 Received: from cj.egroups.com (208.50.144.68) by zash.lupine.org with SMTP; 25 Jun 2000 23:15:00 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-44114-3222-961974898-mark=kli.org@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.10.38] by cj.egroups.com with NNFMP; 25 Jun 2000 23:14:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 12879 invoked from network); 25 Jun 2000 23:14:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 25 Jun 2000 23:14:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (216.33.241.75) by mta1 with SMTP; 25 Jun 2000 23:14:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 65158 invoked by uid 0); 25 Jun 2000 23:14:57 -0000 Message-ID: <20000625231457.65157.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 200.32.23.248 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Sun, 25 Jun 2000 16:14:57 PDT X-Originating-IP: [200.32.23.248] To: lojban@egroups.com From: "Jorge Llambias" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list lojban@egroups.com; contact lojban-owner@egroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list lojban@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 16:14:57 PDT Subject: Re: [lojban] RECORD: containers Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit la pycyn cusku di'e >I skip over the problem (for which lb has no better solution >than English) of internal and external negations -- that this is >a bottle but not one containing something, and simply say >that, given we do acknowledge that ta is a bottle This is the point. If we take the place structures seriously, ta is actually being a botpi only when it contains something, a side effect of the inflated place structures. In English a bottle is a bottle independently of whether it contains something or not. In Lojban {botpi} is a relationship between two objects, at least in theory. In practice we will probably use it as if it only applied to one object when it suits us. There is no problem at all in English as far as I can see, since an English bottle can be empty and remain "bottling", or being bottle. In Lojban, when there are no contents the object ceases the actual bottling until it contains something again. It continues to be a potential bottler, of course, but not an actual one. Just like a potential goer is not an actual goer unless it is going somewhere. >and being >good Griceans, we admit that not containing anything *of >relevance to the present discussion* is pretty much what we >mean by "empty" -- air, Coke dregs, a little water from the >washing up (including minute amounts of soap), and >mosquito turds don't count. I absolutely agree with that. What I'm saying is that when the bottle is empty of relevant stuff, it is not in a botpi relationship with anything, and thus is not properly an actual botpi. (I insist that it remains as a potential botpi, of course.) >Even in a logical language, language ain't logic. So we are already giving up on predicate calculus? It may come to that in the end, but let us at least try for it, no? co'o mi'e xorxes ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Savings + service + convenience = beMANY! http://click.egroups.com/1/4116/4/_/17627/_/961974898/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe, send mail to lojban-unsubscribe@onelist.com