From sentto-44114-3512-963125890-mark=kli.org@returns.onelist.com Sun Jul 09 06:56:22 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: shoulson-kli@meson.org Received: (qmail 18865 invoked from network); 9 Jul 2000 06:56:21 -0000 Received: from zash.lupine.org (205.186.156.18) by pi.meson.org with SMTP; 9 Jul 2000 06:56:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 29047 invoked by uid 40001); 9 Jul 2000 06:58:22 -0000 Delivered-To: kli-mark@kli.org Received: (qmail 29044 invoked from network); 9 Jul 2000 06:58:21 -0000 Received: from mq.egroups.com (208.50.144.79) by zash.lupine.org with SMTP; 9 Jul 2000 06:58:21 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-44114-3512-963125890-mark=kli.org@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.10.38] by mq.egroups.com with NNFMP; 09 Jul 2000 06:58:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 15511 invoked from network); 9 Jul 2000 06:58:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 9 Jul 2000 06:58:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO argo.bas.bg) (195.96.224.7) by mta1 with SMTP; 9 Jul 2000 06:58:04 -0000 Received: from banmatpc.math.bas.bg (root@banmatpc.math.bas.bg [195.96.243.2]) by argo.bas.bg (8.11.0.Beta1/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) with ESMTP id e696w2S10504 for ; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 09:58:02 +0300 Received: from iad.math.bas.bg (iad.math.bas.bg [195.96.243.88]) by banmatpc.math.bas.bg (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA18973 for ; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 09:58:01 +0300 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Message-ID: <39675CE4.4EEFD53@math.bas.bg> X-Mozilla-Draft-Info: internal/draft; vcard=0; receipt=0; uuencode=0; html=0; linewidth=0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en To: lojban@egroups.com References: <20000707015041.22673.qmail@hotmail.com> From: Ivan A Derzhanski MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list lojban@egroups.com; contact lojban-owner@egroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list lojban@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 19:55:00 +0300 Subject: Re: [lojban] "za'o" & "still" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jorge Llambias wrote: > la ivAn cusku di'e > >ZAhO are semantic cmavo; they say where you are relative to > >the event contour, and that's it. > > I understand what you mean, but I prefer to say that they refer > to a given part of the event contour, rather than saying that you > are there. [...] They point to one face (or phase) of the event > which you are describing. Yes, that's just what I meant. > >Whereas in `still' et al. the pragmatic content takes > >precedence. The presuppositions, that is. > > Yes, you are certainly right. In fact, the example that > you gave of a language where both "already" and "still" > are "even now" was very illuminating. And that no lesser language than Hindi, one of Lojban's sources, spoken by kajillions and, for aught I know, typical of the whole Indic branch. > But I can't let go of the notion that there is a strong affinity > between {za'o} and "still". I suppose that depends on what you mean by `affinity'. It may well be true that `still' is usually applicable where {za'o} is. (A similar affinity probably exists between {pu'o} and `not yet', and between {ba'o} and `no longer'.) But the converse does not hold by any means. > If "still" is mainly pragmatic then I see no problem in its > coopting the purely semantic {za'o}. I do. We may want to combine `still' with other members of ZAhO, viz., {pu'o} and {ca'o}. > > > It seems obvious that the only way is to use a lujvo: > > > "[still] fa le nu broda". > > > >Where `[still]' is {ranji} or perhaps {stali}. > > But {le nu broda} is not the presupposition. Saying > {le nu broda cu ranji} is similar to {ca'o broda}. Doesn't `continue' imply `as before'? > {stali} on the other hand might include I think the > notion that the event should have ended by now: So what is the difference between {ranji} `continue' and {stali} `remain'? As I understand it, `remain' = `continue to be'. --Ivan ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Get a NextCard Visa, in 30 seconds! 1. Fill in the brief application 2. Receive approval decision within 30 seconds 3. Get rates as low as 2.9% Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR http://click.egroups.com/1/6630/4/_/17627/_/963125890/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe, send mail to lojban-unsubscribe@onelist.com