From sentto-44114-3590-963342306-mark=kli.org@returns.onelist.com Tue Jul 11 19:02:57 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: shoulson-kli@meson.org Received: (qmail 23343 invoked from network); 11 Jul 2000 19:02:56 -0000 Received: from zash.lupine.org (205.186.156.18) by pi.meson.org with SMTP; 11 Jul 2000 19:02:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 2616 invoked by uid 40001); 11 Jul 2000 19:05:08 -0000 Delivered-To: kli-mark@kli.org Received: (qmail 2613 invoked from network); 11 Jul 2000 19:05:07 -0000 Received: from fj.egroups.com (208.50.144.72) by zash.lupine.org with SMTP; 11 Jul 2000 19:05:07 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-44114-3590-963342306-mark=kli.org@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.10.35] by fj.egroups.com with NNFMP; 11 Jul 2000 19:05:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 4356 invoked from network); 11 Jul 2000 18:52:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 11 Jul 2000 18:52:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO jk.egroups.com) (10.1.10.92) by mta1 with SMTP; 11 Jul 2000 18:52:02 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: Ti@fa-kuan.muc.de Received: from [10.1.10.119] by jk.egroups.com with NNFMP; 11 Jul 2000 18:52:01 -0000 To: lojban@egroups.com Message-ID: <8kfqch+2qal@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster From: "=?iso-8859-1?q?Alfred_W._Tueting_(T=FCting)?=" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list lojban@egroups.com; contact lojban-owner@egroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list lojban@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 18:52:00 -0000 Subject: `even' (Re: [lojban] Re: Tashunkekokipapi) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable --- In lojban@egroups.com, Invent Yourself wrote: > On Mon, 10 Jul 2000, Ivan A Derzhanski wrote: >=20 > > Jorge Llambias wrote: > > > "Even" does point to a contrast, but it is not surprise. You > > > can say things like "he is so fearsome that it is not surprising > > > that even his horse brings fear to his enemies". > > >=20 > > > It is as if you are pointing to a long string of things that > > > bring fear to his enemies: his person, and also his presence, > > > and also his strength, and also his weapons, and finally even > > > his horse. By saying "even his horse" you are including all > > > the other things that are more likely than his horse to bring > > > fear to his enemies. > Very interesting observation, Ivan!=20 >=20 > I see the idea of "even" bearing closer to surprise than to contrast. It > denotes a truth which is not obvious. It is obvious that the presence of > a fearsome man is fearsome. It's not obvious that his horse would be > fearsome too. >=20 > As for the sentence "he is so fearsome that it is not surprising that even > his horse brings fear to his enemies", it is cute but doesn't hide the > fact that if you hadn't told us that his horse is fearsome we would not > have 'normally' inferred it from the fact that he is fearsome. Of course, > there is are kilometers of wiggle room in my use of 'normal'. Or: we may > be able to infer that his horse is fearsome if we know that he's very > fearsome, but we didn't know he was THAT fearsome and there lies the > surprise carried by the 'even'. Indeed, interesting Ivan's different examples for "even": I picked=20 out the Chinese one for analyzing it: 'shen4chih4' BIG5 =AC=C6=A6=DC - 'shen' is given as "What? Who? Any. Very; extremely.=20 More important than" and the compound as "even to; even as far as=20 to; at the worst; culminating in" (Mathews). The character shen =AC=C6 etymologically derives from 'kan1' =A5=CC (sweetness of something=20 'i1' =A4@ held in the mouth 'kou3' =A4f; by extension, satisfaction, *affection*)=20 and 'p'i3' =A4=C7 (one half of the devisable even number 'four', i.e. that which,=20 joined with its like, forms a *pair*, a match). 'shen' =AC=C6 "the *affection*=20 for being that makes the pair (sexual) (...) This affection being very great,=20 says the Glose, hence the extended meaning, *superlative, very, extremely, excessive*=20 (Dr. Wieger, S.J.). So, Jorges opinion to me seems pretty convincing, since 'shen4chih4' literally=20 infact means "reaching the extreme(s)"! Yet, the extremes /terai/,=20 /ji'acai/(?) are part of the 'unusual', 'unexpected' - *astounding* /.ue/, don't=20 they? .aulun. =B6=F8=C0s http://www.fa-kuan.muc.de" http://www.fa-kuan.muc.de/SPUREN.RXML">Traces of Butterflies' Dreams - =BD=BA=B9=DA=B2=AA "Tieh Meng Hen" http://www.fa-kuan.muc.de/MYPOEMS.RXML">My Poetry A.W. Tueting Ti@fa-kuan.muc.de =BCw=B0=EA=BC}=A5=A7=B6=C2 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ To email plain text is conventional, to add graphics is devine.=20=20 We'll show you how at www.supersig.com. http://click.egroups.com/1/6808/4/_/17627/_/963342306/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe, send mail to lojban-unsubscribe@onelist.com