From Ti@fa-kuan.muc.de Sun Jul 09 11:25:38 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 32499 invoked from network); 9 Jul 2000 18:25:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 9 Jul 2000 18:25:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hi.egroups.com) (10.1.10.41) by mta1 with SMTP; 9 Jul 2000 18:25:38 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: Ti@fa-kuan.muc.de Received: from [10.1.10.127] by hi.egroups.com with NNFMP; 09 Jul 2000 18:25:37 -0000 Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 18:25:28 -0000 To: lojban@egroups.com Subject: Re: Englishistic Message-ID: <8kag2o+3u22@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <39647251.C978CC22@bilkent.edu.tr> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 1977 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster From: "=?iso-8859-1?q?Alfred_W._Tueting_(T=FCting)?=" X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 3522 --- In lojban@egroups.com, Robin wrote: > Ivan A Derzhanski wrote: > > > > Robin Turner wrote: > > > > > > Turkish (also Altaic) is also different. > > > > Why `also Altaic'? Hungarian is Uralic, not Altaic. > > Oops! I must have been carrying over from the old (an invalid) > "Ural-Altaic" category. > > > > > "Still" (as in continuing) is "hala" (should be a circumflex > > > on the first "a" , IIRC); > > > > Should be a circumflex on both _a_. This suffices to label the word > > as a non-Turkish one; in fact it is Arabic, borrowed via Persian, and > > meant `now, presently' before developing the meaning of `still'. > > > Makes an interesting contrast with "artIk", then. > > > > (e.g. "daha gelmedi" - "he/she/it hasn't come yet", > > > in contrast to "hala gelmedi" - "he/she/it _still_ hasn't come"). > > > > I'd be curious to hear you discuss the difference between these two. > > Jorge and I are native speakers of languages in which `still not' is > > the only way of saying `not yet', and here you talk of a contrast. > > In the first case there seems to be no, or weak, implication that the > event should have happened by now. For example, you can say in English > "The film hasn't started yet", or in turkish "Film daha bas~lamadI" > without implying that it should have started - maybe you are pointing > out that the film starts at 21:00 and it is only 20:55. With "still" > and "ha^la^", however, I think there is some implication of lateness. Thanks, from this discussion I first got the sense for the contrast of English "not yet" and "still not", I wasn't aware of this contrast at all, nor in other languages (mentioned by Ivan). Yet, now I see that e.g. German and Hungarian indeed are having this contrast like Turkish "daha/hâlâ": it's "noch (nicht)/noch immer (nicht)" and "m=E9g/m=E9g mindig" (=3Dstill always), "m=E9g nem (sem)/m=E9g mindig nem (sem)" (=3Dstill always not). .aulun.