From grey.havens@earthling.net Mon Jul 10 11:21:42 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 9505 invoked from network); 10 Jul 2000 18:18:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 10 Jul 2000 18:18:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO postfix2.free.fr) (212.27.32.74) by mta1 with SMTP; 10 Jul 2000 18:18:16 -0000 Received: from tam.n (marseille2-1-60-180.dial.proxad.net [212.27.60.180]) by postfix2.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 235E274099 for ; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 20:18:14 +0200 (MEST) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 20:17:50 +0200 (CEST) X-Sender: elrond@tam.n To: Lojban List Subject: Re: [lojban] Vocabulary (more to come) In-Reply-To: <20000709162142.49689.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE From: Elrond X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 3535 > la rafael cusku di'e >=20 > >vala:valan > >lamba:lamben > >halla:alar >=20 > You can't have "la" in a name. Shame on me. I forgot once again. Here is an updated list: tinco:tinkom parma:parmam calma:kalmam quesse:kuesem ando:andom umbar:umbar anga:angam ungwe:unguem th=FBle:sulem formen:formen charma:xarmam chwesta:xuestam anto:antom ampa:ampam anca:ankam unque:unkuem n=FBmen:numen malta:maltam =F1oldo:nioldom =F1walme:nualmem =F4re:orem vala:valem anna:anam wilya:uiliam ? ? lamba:lembem alda:aldam silme:silmen s. nuquerna:silmem.nukuernam =E1ze:azem =E1. nuquerna:azen.nukuer= nan hyarmen:iarmen ? yanta:iantam =FAre:urem halla:alem However, with so much modifications, I begin to think that it would perhaps be better to use other words for naming the tengwar... Were these names definately fixed ? (any tengwar experts ?) Perhaps using the "bu" system... > >bevle'u=09=09x1 is a sign/letter carrying sign/letter/accent x2 in > >=09=09 alphabet/character set x3 representing x4 li'o > I wouldn't mind the metaphor if {bevri} just meant "carries", > but it means "carries-to-from-via", and accents are not carried > forth like that. I propose: >=20 > lerja'i x1 is an accent/sign/decoration on letter/sign x2 > of alphabet x3 representing x4 > (x1=3Dj1, x2=3Dj2=3Dl1, x3=3Dl2, x4=3Dl3) Oh, indeed, it is far better! (I was too much biased by the use of the word 'carrier' in the tengwar terminology). > >(FIXME: wouldn't it be better not to include this x4 place in the fu'ivl= a > >"lerfrtengua", and use "sema'e" of selma'o BAI to indicate the structure= ?) >=20 > Certainly. The less complicated the place structure, the easier > it is to use the word. Could you explain what is the "mode" x3 > of lerfrtengua? A "mode" is (quite roughly) a "set" of rules giving the meaning of the various tengwar constructs for the writing of a particular language. Because of the nature of the tengwar system (I'll come to it again at a later time), the tengwar can have several meanings depending on the 'mode' in which they are used. Therefore, when speaking about a tengwa in a particular "text", a reference to the 'mode' used is necessary to fully grasp the tengwa's meaning. If I wanted to be more precise, following the spirit of lojban by describing the "lerfrtengua" as a predication, I would say that the tengwa-ness relationship between a sign and its meaning takes a quite mandatory additional parameter, which is the 'mode' that specifies which meaning is to be associated to the sign. (Oh, incidentally, this makes me figure out that the "structure" of a tengwa is indeed not really a parameter to this tengwa-ness relationship, let's thus drop this x4) > >nitci'ali'i=09x1 is an underline stroke for text/signs x2 > >=09=09(x1 =3D cnita1/linji1, x2 =3D ciska2) >=20 > Won't {nitli'i} do? Otherwise, what happens to ciska1? You are right. I was confusing thinking about both the sign (the underline) and the action of underlining. nitli'i=09=09x1 is a underline stroke for object/thing x2 =09=09(x1 =3D cnita1/linji1, x2 =3D cinta2) Of course this allows for a rather clear meaning for "selciska nitli'i". >=20 > >ninja'osku=09x1 announces x2 to audience x3 via expressive medium x4 > >=09=09(x1 =3D ninja'o1/cusku1, x2=3Dninja'o2/cusku2, x3 =3D ninja'o3/cus= ku3 > >=09=09 x4 =3D cusku4) >=20 > {noisku} might also work for this. Well, it might, although it doesn't carry the meaning of the announcement as an introduction to a *new* idea. > >ci'armo'a=09x1 is a set of notations including x2 in document x3 with > >=09=09structure x4 > >=09=09(x1 =3D ciska2/morna1, x2 =3D morna2, x3 =3D ciska3, x4 =3D morna3= ) >=20 > I still miss the writer in "writer-pattern". Can't you use > {lermo'a} or {snimo'a}? Or, if you need the substratum place > maybe {sniba'amo'a}. I think you have to keep the writer > place if you use {ciska}. Right, right... :-( Same problem as "underline" above... Additionnaly, now that I have both "sinxa" and "lerfu" in mind, I can guess that the words I am looking for change depending on the structure of the notation system. However, still "sinxa" is more "generic". Let me try it out: snimo'a=09=09x1 is a set/pattern of notations x2 built according to=20 =09=09rules/meanings x3 =09=09(x1 =3D sinxa1/morna1, x2 =3D morna2, x3 =3D sinxa2/morna3) Then, I believe that "snimo'a cmaci'a" or even "snimo'a ciska" have the meaning "x1 notes x2 instead of x3 in document x4". And then the concept of "notation" in a written text itself can be obtained with a conversion. Am I right ? Regards, raph