From araizen@newmail.net Mon Jul 03 04:25:03 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 23937 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2000 11:25:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 3 Jul 2000 11:25:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO NewMail.Net) (192.117.188.50) by mta1 with SMTP; 3 Jul 2000 11:25:01 -0000 Received: from NewMail.Net ([192.117.188.41]) by newmail.net ; Mon, 03 Jul 2000 14:21:36 +02:00 Sender: araizen@NewMail.Net Reply-to: araizen@NewMail.Net To: lojban@egroups.com Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 14:21:36 Gmt +2:00 Subject: Re: [lojban] Opposite of za'o Message-id: <39609360.c3.0@NewMail.Net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Adam Raizen" X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 3383 la xorxes cusku di'e >Could you give some example? It may be as you say, but to me >"still" has a strong component of "beyond expectation". > Two hungry people sit down to eat. After having barely started eating, and not passing any potential end, one of them suddenly receives a message that they must leave immediately. The second one protests: But I am still hungry. i ku'i mi mo'unai xagji i.e. I have not gotten to the natural completion of my being hungry. I suppose this leaves open the possibility that he is no longer hungry, having naturally completed it. Maybe "pu'omo'u" is better. >>Thus, in some >>circumstances, "co'u" and "mo'u" would be good translations >>for "no longer". > >Maybe, but the focus is completely different. Can you think >of some examples? {ca co'u} does not mean "is now over", >that is {ca ba'o}. {ca mo'u} means "it is right now being >finished". It refers to the transition, the same as {co'a}. Someone watching a sinking boat comments: It no longer sails the seas. i co'u fanli'u loi xamsi. >>I think that "pu'o" is generally a good translation for >>"not yet". Both say that the event has not yet started, >>and neither imply that the event will actually happen. > >But there is a very significant difference! "Not yet" refers >to an event that *should* have started but hasn't, while >{pu'o} refers to a situation where an event is about to start, >but there is nothing in it to suggest that it should have >already started. "She has not arrived yet" is very different >from "she is about to arrive". They give different information. I think that "is about to", and "on the verge of" are as bad translations of "pu'o" as "continues to" is of "ca'o". "is about to" is "bazi" and implies that the event will happen. "ba'o" tells us that the event has passed, but doesn't tell us how long before the reference point it occurred, and likewise "pu'o" tells us that the event is completely after the reference point, but doesn't tell us how long after. I'm not so sure that "not yet" necessarily implies that the event should have already started. I have washed the car, but I have not yet walked the dog. i mi ba'o lumci le karce i ku'i mi pu'o dzugau le gerku I don't think that there's necessarily an implication that walking the dog should have already occured. Perhaps the speaker has just finished washing the car, and is merely giving a status report. What "not yet" does imply, however, is that there is some reason that we are considering the possibility that the bridi will occur. However, this is implied by the fact that the bridi is mentioned at all. If the fact that the event should have already started is really important in the context, you have to use "za'o na". I suppose that this means that in some cases "ba'o" by itself could be "already", but only when the event has ended, as in "I have already eaten", and only when you don't need to imply that the event started earlier than it should have, as in: Did Jim already leave? i xu la djim ba'o cliva >>Thus, "already" could sometimes be "na pu'o/pu'onai", > >I can't imagine how that one could work. To me that does >not even say that the event need be happening. If it is not the case that it is before the start of the event, then the event has already started (at least in bivalent logic, I think :). There's just no implication that it started too early. I think it's the same as "ba'oco'a" in almost all cases. If "already" is the opposite of "za'o", maybe we could use "to'eza'o", before the natural beginning. co'o mi'e adam _________________________________________ Protect your Computer from Viruses Sent via E-mail at http://www.mailcleaner.com