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Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 20:04:54 -0000
To: lojban@egroups.com
Subject: `even' (Re: [lojban] Re: Tashunkekokipapi)
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From: "=?iso-8859-1?q?Alfred_W._Tueting_(T=FCting)?=" <Ti@fa-kuan.muc.de>
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--- In lojban@egroups.com, "Jorge Llambias" <jjllambias@h...> wrote:
> la lojbab cusku di'e
> 
> >Is "even" then expressing extremity on a scale plus possible
surprise?
> 
> Possible surprise, possible happiness, possible pity, any
> attitudinal can be added to it as far as I can tell. They are
> all independent of "even".
> 
>     la djan ji'acai ue klama
>     Even John (what a surprise!) came.
> 
>     la djan ji'acai ui klama
>     Even John (what joy!) came.
> 
>     la djan ji'acai uu klama
>     Even John (poor thing!) came.
> 
> In all cases, "even" means that John was the least likely
> to be expected to come, but he did anyway. The accompanying
> emotion (surprise, happiness, pity) is independent of "even".

Although I like /ji'acai/, I still feel that surprise somehow is part
of "even". Maybe there's no real need to express this in a Lojban 
word (as it isn't verbally expressed in any language I'm familiar
with - but it's in my mind anyway! E.g. German "sogar" only 
refers to "gar", which gives a slight idea of "finished cooking" or
"ganz und gar" - "entirely").
Surprise need not be 'independent of "even"' as you pointed out, and
in a line with joy, fear, sorrow, pity etc., but itself being 
'flavoured' by joy, sorrow etc.. In German e.g. one can be "angenehm
=FCberrascht" ('pleasently' surprised), "unangenehm 
=FCberrascht", "schmerzlich =FCberrascht" ('painfully' surprised),
"freudig =FCberrascht" ('joyfully' surprised) etc. So, surprise can 
be part of "even" and you could easily still add all those .ui, .uu,
.ii etc. I once thought of /.ueji'a/ or even /.ueji'acai/

co'omi'e .aulun.