From sentto-44114-3436-962893124-mark=kli.org@returns.onelist.com Thu Jul 06 14:16:58 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: shoulson-kli@meson.org Received: (qmail 14161 invoked from network); 6 Jul 2000 14:16:57 -0000 Received: from zash.lupine.org (205.186.156.18) by pi.meson.org with SMTP; 6 Jul 2000 14:16:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 28396 invoked by uid 40001); 6 Jul 2000 14:18:46 -0000 Delivered-To: kli-mark@kli.org Received: (qmail 28392 invoked from network); 6 Jul 2000 14:18:46 -0000 Received: from c3.egroups.com (207.138.41.143) by zash.lupine.org with SMTP; 6 Jul 2000 14:18:46 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-44114-3436-962893124-mark=kli.org@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.10.37] by c3.egroups.com with NNFMP; 06 Jul 2000 14:18:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 10055 invoked from network); 6 Jul 2000 14:18:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 6 Jul 2000 14:18:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO argo.bas.bg) (195.96.224.7) by mta1 with SMTP; 6 Jul 2000 14:18:35 -0000 Received: from banmatpc.math.bas.bg (root@banmatpc.math.bas.bg [195.96.243.2]) by argo.bas.bg (8.11.0.Beta1/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) with ESMTP id e66EIOS01256 for ; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 17:18:30 +0300 Received: from iad.math.bas.bg (iad.math.bas.bg [195.96.243.88]) by banmatpc.math.bas.bg (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA09757 for ; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 17:18:24 +0300 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Message-ID: <39647939.4DF06CDE@math.bas.bg> X-Mozilla-Draft-Info: internal/draft; vcard=0; receipt=0; uuencode=0; html=0; linewidth=0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en To: lojban@egroups.com References: From: Ivan A Derzhanski MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list lojban@egroups.com; contact lojban-owner@egroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list lojban@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 15:19:06 +0300 Subject: Re: [lojban] "za'o" & "still" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable And Rosta wrote: > I agree with most of what Jorge has said, including that "still" > shd not be an attitudinal, but I strongly agree with Ivan that > "za'o" not =3D "still". I'm actually making a stronger statement, namely that no term of the `still/already' family can be covered by any ZAhO. ZAhO are semantic cmavo; they say where you are relative to the event contour, and that's it. Whereas in `still' et al. the pragmatic content takes precedence. The presuppositions, that is. Cf. the famous examples: (a) _Are you beating your wife?_ (b) _Are you still beating your wife?_ (a), which is not a loaded question, can always be answered by `yes' or `no'. (b) may also be answerable in that way (and if it is, (a) would also be answered in the same way), but it also may not, because it has presuppositions which, if not met, rule out both `yes' and `no'. In fact (b) can be paraphrased as: `(Presupposing that you used to beat your wife and that you may not be beating her now,) are you beating your wife?'. And how do presuppositions work in Lojban? Not through ZAhO, surely. But LE might work: a statement with {lenu broda} in it presupposes that something the speaker describes as a broda event exists, and if it does not, the statement is pragmatically ill-formed, not false. > The question then is, how to express "still" in Lojban. > It seems obvious that the only way is to use a lujvo: > "[still] fa le nu broda". Where `[still]' is {ranji} or perhaps {stali}. As I said, some languages actively use `continue V-ing' for `be still V-ing', and if it weren't for the fact that English is more comfortable using an adverb, such a solution might provoke less hesitation. --Ivan ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Where do sports heroes like Derek Jeter, Mia Hamm, Vince Carter and Peyton Manning hang out? Where else? Click now and find =91em all here! http://click.egroups.com/1/6211/4/_/17627/_/962893122/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe, send mail to lojban-unsubscribe@onelist.com