From sentto-44114-3524-963167138-mark=kli.org@returns.onelist.com Sun Jul 09 18:23:42 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: shoulson-kli@meson.org Received: (qmail 19645 invoked from network); 9 Jul 2000 18:23:41 -0000 Received: from zash.lupine.org (205.186.156.18) by pi.meson.org with SMTP; 9 Jul 2000 18:23:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 17093 invoked by uid 40001); 9 Jul 2000 18:25:43 -0000 Delivered-To: kli-mark@kli.org Received: (qmail 17090 invoked from network); 9 Jul 2000 18:25:43 -0000 Received: from c9.egroups.com (207.138.41.187) by zash.lupine.org with SMTP; 9 Jul 2000 18:25:43 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-44114-3524-963167138-mark=kli.org@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.10.38] by c9.egroups.com with NNFMP; 09 Jul 2000 18:25:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 32499 invoked from network); 9 Jul 2000 18:25:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 9 Jul 2000 18:25:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hi.egroups.com) (10.1.10.41) by mta1 with SMTP; 9 Jul 2000 18:25:38 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: Ti@fa-kuan.muc.de Received: from [10.1.10.127] by hi.egroups.com with NNFMP; 09 Jul 2000 18:25:37 -0000 To: lojban@egroups.com Message-ID: <8kag2o+3u22@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <39647251.C978CC22@bilkent.edu.tr> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster From: "=?iso-8859-1?q?Alfred_W._Tueting_(T=FCting)?=" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list lojban@egroups.com; contact lojban-owner@egroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list lojban@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 18:25:28 -0000 Subject: [lojban] Re: Englishistic Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable --- In lojban@egroups.com, Robin wrote: > Ivan A Derzhanski wrote: > >=20 > > Robin Turner wrote: >=20 > >=20 > > > Turkish (also Altaic) is also different. > >=20 > > Why `also Altaic'? Hungarian is Uralic, not Altaic. >=20 > Oops! I must have been carrying over from the old (an invalid) > "Ural-Altaic" category. > >=20 > > > "Still" (as in continuing) is "hala" (should be a circumflex > > > on the first "a" , IIRC); > >=20 > > Should be a circumflex on both _a_. This suffices to label the word > > as a non-Turkish one; in fact it is Arabic, borrowed via Persian, and > > meant `now, presently' before developing the meaning of `still'. > >=20 > Makes an interesting contrast with "artIk", then.=20=20 >=20 > > > (e.g. "daha gelmedi" - "he/she/it hasn't come yet", > > > in contrast to "hala gelmedi" - "he/she/it _still_ hasn't come"). > >=20 > > I'd be curious to hear you discuss the difference between these two. > > Jorge and I are native speakers of languages in which `still not' is > > the only way of saying `not yet', and here you talk of a contrast. >=20 > In the first case there seems to be no, or weak, implication that the > event should have happened by now. For example, you can say in English > "The film hasn't started yet", or in turkish "Film daha bas~lamadI" > without implying that it should have started - maybe you are pointing > out that the film starts at 21:00 and it is only 20:55. With "still" > and "ha^la^", however, I think there is some implication of lateness. Thanks, from this discussion I first got the sense for the contrast of English "not yet" and "still not", I wasn't aware of this contrast=20 at all, nor in other languages (mentioned by Ivan). Yet, now I see that e.g. German and Hungarian indeed are having this contrast=20 like Turkish "daha/hâlâ": it's "noch (nicht)/noch immer (nicht)" and "m=E9g/m=E9g mindig" (=3Dstill always), "m=E9g nem=20 (sem)/m=E9g mindig nem (sem)" (=3Dstill always not). .aulun. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Experience MSN... Get 1 FREE* month of unlimited Internet access! http://click.egroups.com/1/6323/4/_/17627/_/963167138/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe, send mail to lojban-unsubscribe@onelist.com