From sentto-44114-3472-963005890-mark=kli.org@returns.onelist.com Fri Jul 07 21:36:19 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: shoulson-kli@meson.org Received: (qmail 16410 invoked from network); 7 Jul 2000 21:36:18 -0000 Received: from zash.lupine.org (205.186.156.18) by pi.meson.org with SMTP; 7 Jul 2000 21:36:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 2916 invoked by uid 40001); 7 Jul 2000 21:38:13 -0000 Delivered-To: kli-mark@kli.org Received: (qmail 2913 invoked from network); 7 Jul 2000 21:38:12 -0000 Received: from ch.egroups.com (207.138.41.144) by zash.lupine.org with SMTP; 7 Jul 2000 21:38:12 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-44114-3472-963005890-mark=kli.org@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.10.38] by ch.egroups.com with NNFMP; 07 Jul 2000 21:38:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 15254 invoked from network); 7 Jul 2000 21:38:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 7 Jul 2000 21:38:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO locke.ccil.org) (192.190.237.102) by mta1 with SMTP; 7 Jul 2000 21:38:09 -0000 Received: from localhost (cowan@localhost) by locke.ccil.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA04710; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 18:14:52 -0400 (EDT) To: And Rosta Cc: lojban@egroups.com In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-eGroups-From: John Cowan From: John Cowan MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list lojban@egroups.com; contact lojban-owner@egroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list lojban@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 18:14:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [lojban] Re: zi'o & otpi Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 7 Jul 2000, And Rosta wrote: > le se gerku be zi'o, for a dog breed > that exists independently of actual dogs. 1) "gerku" relates not only actual dogs with actual dog breeds, but allows the relation of potential dogs and/or potential dog breeds as well. Does it even make sense to talk about a dog breed which neither is, nor could possibly be, instantiated in any conceivable dogs? What on earth would make it a *dog* breed, then? 2) In any event, this is not the actual function of "zi'o". Whatever is a "se gerku" (St. Bernards, e.g.) is also a "se gerku be zi'o", though the converse might or might not be true. This can be easily seen by moving up a level of abstraction to properties/relationships: lo ka ce'u ciblu ce'u the relationship between blood and the organism that has it lo ka ce'u ciblu zo'e the property of being the blood of some organism (known from context) lo ka zo'e ciblu ce'u the property of being the organism from which the blood (known in context) comes lo ka ce'u ciblu zi'o the property of being blood lo ka zi'o ciblu ce'u the property of having blood lo du'u zo'e ciblu zo'e the claim that some blood (context) is from some organism (context) > The language > will either be defined by usage, in which case its grammar will > be relatively vague and indeterminate, or it will be defined by > formal documentation, in which case usage will largely be > irrelevant. The (foreseen) role of "usage" in Lojbanistan is rather different. Lojban provides lots of ways to say the same things ("same" by the formal documentation). Usage is expected to accept some of these as normal, treat others as marked (i.e. as representing some distinction not made by the formal doco), and reject others as farfetched or unintelligible (Early Andese dialect). > So better than zi'oing off unwanted places, or pretending they're > not there, is to use some alternative brivla. Which is why "zi'o" has a rafsi, so that such brivla can be constructed. > So, for example, if you want a word for > "bottle such that something actually is a bottle even when > it's empty", then you could use "otpi" (with, in lujvo, the > same rafsi as "botpi"). Cool idea, and even formalizable, because we can say that "otpi" is a short synonym for the formally defined "relzilbotpi". (Or is it "zilrelbotpi"? Can't find the explanation in the Red Book.) -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org C'est la` pourtant que se livre le sens du dire, de ce que, s'y conjuguant le nyania qui bruit des sexes en compagnie, il supplee a ce qu'entre eux, de rapport nyait pas. -- Jacques Lacan, "L'Etourdit" ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Old school buds here: http://click.egroups.com/1/5536/4/_/17627/_/963005890/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe, send mail to lojban-unsubscribe@onelist.com