From tpeterpark@erols.com Fri Mar 16 15:11:34 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: tpeterpark@erols.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 16 Mar 2001 23:11:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 69828 invoked from network); 16 Mar 2001 23:11:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 16 Mar 2001 23:11:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net) (207.172.4.61) by mta3 with SMTP; 17 Mar 2001 00:12:37 -0000 Received: from 209-122-226-193.s447.apx1.nyw.ny.dialup.rcn.com ([209.122.226.193] helo=umktgghc) by smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net with smtp (Exim 3.16 #5) id 14e3Nb-0000DT-00 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 16 Mar 2001 18:11:31 -0500 Message-ID: <3AB29D2C.D6E@erols.com> Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 18:09:32 -0500 Reply-To: tpeterpark@erols.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-DH397 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Some questions References: <3AB17AF7.503F@erols.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "T. Peter Park" X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 5877 Dear Avital and lobypli, While I'm not an Israeli, I do gather from what I know "about" modern Israeli Hebrew that it's a 5-vowel language--as are Italian, Spanish, Modern Greek, Czech, Japanese, Tagalog, Swahili, (Caucasian) Georgian, Hawaiian, Samoan, Maori, and Fijian--to most of whose speakers the (Lojban) "y" is similarly a difficult, exotic sound, very hard to distinguish from an "a" or an "e". However, Lojban y, or something very similar to it, is a normal phoneme of 4 of the 6 base natlangs of Lojban--English, Russian, Chinese, and Hindi--as well as of such other major world languages as French, German, Portuguese, Turkish, Korean, Thai, Vietnamese, and Indonesian--and likewise of many, many "lesser" languages like Gaelic, Welsh, Dutch, Swedish, Danish, Norwegian, Yiddish, Estonian, Bulgarian, Romanian, Albanian, Cambodian, Laotian, etc. Perhaps half or more of the world's languages have a vowel sound more or less resembling Lojban "y". It is, I believe, the most commonly occurring vowel world-wide after the "basic 5" a,e,i,o,u. There are, of course, also languages that have fewer than 5 vowels, often just the 3 vowels a,i,u--e.g., many Arabic dialects, most Australian Aboriginal languages, most Eskimo (Inuit) dialects, and most forms of Quechua. Older-generation or recent-immigrant Israelis who originally grew up speaking Yiddish, German, or Russian should be able to master the Lojban "y" sound just fine! Ancient Biblical Hebrew, I understand, had a rather more complex vowel system than modern Israeli Hebrew. Probably la mocex. and la daUID. or la celoMON. would have had little trouble with "y"! :=) Regards, T. Peter Garden City South, LI, NY, USA > Avital Oliver wrote: > > > > a) Regarding be/bei/be'o. I don't quite understand why bei is needed. Why > > can't it be defined that be understood as "what > > fills the place for '_______ cu SELBRI TEXT'", and sumti are separated the > > 'standard' way in a normal bridi > > > > b) After starting to teach Lojban to some friends, they all shouted out > > that "This goddamn 'y' letter is all fucked-up. It sounds too close to > > either a or e". I live in Israel, and Israeli speak in a european accent > > (which I understood is the 'best' way to pronounce Lojban). 'a' is NOT > > pronounced as in 'ball', but in a 'higher' way. It makes 'a' sound very > > close to 'y'. 'y' is also a non-standard sound in modern Hebrew. From my > > small experience in language construction, I always got stuck in the > > 5-vowel barrier. It's very tempting to get to more, but you always end up > > with some people not being able to diffrentiate. Anyone have any > > explanations? > > > > c) The use of pe with tense modifiers. I do not understand the grammer > > behind . This seems idiotic, or at least 'forcing the > > meaning' into the phrase. Isn't a sumti supposed to some after pe? And if > > not, what is the exact way of understanding the meaning? > > > > d) LOJBAN, what's with the books? =) > > > > I probably have more, but this is for starters. > > > > Bye, > > Avital Oliver. > > > > > > To unsubscribe, send mail to lojban-unsubscribe@onelist.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/