From graywyvern@hotmail.com Mon Mar 26 12:59:29 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: graywyvern@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 26 Mar 2001 20:59:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 2144 invoked from network); 26 Mar 2001 20:59:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 26 Mar 2001 20:59:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (216.33.237.231) by mta1 with SMTP; 26 Mar 2001 20:59:27 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 26 Mar 2001 12:59:27 -0800 Received: from 209.176.48.49 by lw7fd.law7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 26 Mar 2001 20:59:27 GMT X-Originating-IP: [209.176.48.49] To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: munje fatci [was: Re: [lojban] Random lojban Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 20:59:27 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Mar 2001 20:59:27.0245 (UTC) FILETIME=[A4E743D0:01C0B637] From: "michael helsem" X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 6220 >From: Pycyn@aol.com li'o >I am not sure what the stages of observing are, >however, even under analysis. What i had in mind was a series i call the "four barriers": 1. noise 2. revulsion 3. fascination 4. understanding. To notice something at all is to "cross the noise threshold"; to be able to perceive it accurately one must overcome its strangeness; then to begin to understand it truly one must stop identifying with it emotionally; finally (& this transcends science) one lets go of even that understanding, because other understandings are or will be also possible. This was not reached by unfurling words, though it takes a few to unpack the insight. li'o >Since intuition just above introduced stages into observation by you, it >seems to constrast with non-dividing sensing and so, >possibly, with not-so-attentive consciousness. That, if correct, would >make one equivalent true of all consciousness of reality, >while the other equivalent, non-dividing sensing, is not always true. Those stages are developmental & can (but don't necessary) follow with increasing duration of familiarity... It is possible to conceive of an epistemology for each level, but i think what we mean by VE DJUNO belongs to #3 & #4. Before that, stimuli register more as "present/not-present" than as differentiated "things". I am afraid that for me JIJNU means Intuition only in the Jungian sense (one of the four fundamental modalities) & not as any of the several English uses of the word (most of which are better translated as CINMO). But i then need to introduce a new set of terms--perhaps TSALI JUNDI for "concentration" & RUBLE JUNDI for the typical scattered awareness that produces hardly any memory trace. Then continuing NU TSALI JUNDI leads to the next state, NU STODI JIJNU "meditation", in which true insights occur. Even then, it is no more complete than that the sparkle of the sun in one droplet of a waterfall (which does contain spectrally all the colors) subsumes all the paths of light in all the others; finite beings can not comprehend the totality. It is said (e.g. by Patanjali) that continued perseverence in the practice of NU STODI JIJNU will lead to a state which might be referred to as MU'E MUNJE FATCI SANJI ("samadhi"), but insofar as to all observers the person involved seems to be unaware of their surroundings, & then afterwards remembers nothing, it might be wiser to consider this simply TO'E DJUNO & remain in the tradition of parables. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com