From a.rosta@dtn.ntl.com Mon Apr 23 13:39:27 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: a.rosta@dtn.ntl.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_2); 23 Apr 2001 20:39:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 49442 invoked from network); 23 Apr 2001 20:39:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 23 Apr 2001 20:39:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mta02-svc.ntlworld.com) (62.253.162.42) by mta3 with SMTP; 23 Apr 2001 20:39:25 -0000 Received: from andrew ([62.252.14.57]) by mta02-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with SMTP id <20010423203922.MKOR290.mta02-svc.ntlworld.com@andrew> for ; Mon, 23 Apr 2001 21:39:22 +0100 To: Subject: RE: [lojban] RE:not only Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 21:38:26 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 In-Reply-To: From: "And Rosta" X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 6847 pc: > In a message dated 4/20/2001 9:41:38 PM Central Daylight Time, > lojbab@lojban.org writes: > > cowan: > > Quiddities< explains a clear > >and general method for restating "only" in the language of predicate logic > >(which is of course what Lojban is about):> Identity...> > > > A vital use of identity lurks unobserved in much of our use > > > of 'only' and 'else' and 'nothing but'. When I say that the hiding > > > place is known to Ralph and only him, nobody else, I mean to > > > say two things: that Ralph knows the hiding place and that > > > whoever knows the hiding place is identical with Ralph. To > > > say that there is no God but Allah is to affirm, of whatever > > > Gods there be, that Each, or He, is identical with Allah. > >These two examples go directly into Lojban thus: > > ro da poi djuno fi le velmipri stuzi du la ralf. > > all x1s which know-about the secret-method place are-identical-to > > Ralph > > ro da poi cevni du la .alax. > > all x1s which are-gods are-identical-to Allah > >Here are more examples showing the flexibility of this "da poi... du" > >construct: > > la djordj. du ro da poi darxi le tamni fo le nazbi > > George is-identical-to all those who hit the cousin on the nose. > > Only George hit his cousin on his nose. > >(Note that English is over-specific by Lojban standards in saying "his > >cousin". > >and "his nose". Likewise, English idiomatically says "He put his hands in > his > >pockets": to speakers of other languages, the question naturally arises > >"Whose pockets would he put his hands in?", and even more peculiar, "Whose > >hands would he put in his pockets?".) > > ro da poi la djordj. darxi ke'a fo le nazbi du le tamne > > All those whom George hit on the nose are-identical-with the > cousin. > > George hit only his cousin on his nose. > > ro da poi la djordj. darxi le tamne fo ke'a du le nazbi > > All that which George hit his cousin on are-identical-with the > nose > > George hit his cousin only on his nose. > > George hit his cousin on his nose only.> I can't quite tell who's saying what, & I seem to have missed a batch of messages, but at any rate I posted on this topic recently, showing that you need the arguments of du to be sets (so as to avoid problems such as the fact that "le broda cu du le brode" means "each of the broda is each of the brode"). > {mi'i} isn't UI and the others, with the possible exception of {kau} don't > effect content in a logical way (deletion and insertion, for example, are > hardly logical operations, and {pe'a} modifies the meaning, not the structure > of the sentence. It is encouraging to think that SOMEONE knows (or has even > a clue) of how {kau} works. Names? Who is it that has a decent clue of how {kau} works? --And.