From pycyn@aol.com Mon Jun 04 19:48:07 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: Pycyn@aol.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 5 Jun 2001 02:48:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 32631 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2001 02:48:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 5 Jun 2001 02:48:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d06.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.38) by mta2 with SMTP; 5 Jun 2001 02:48:04 -0000 Received: from Pycyn@aol.com by imo-d06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v30.22.) id r.a0.15689672 (1758) for ; Mon, 4 Jun 2001 22:48:02 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 22:48:01 EDT Subject: Re: [lojban] More Alice To: lojban@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_a0.15689672.284da261_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10519 From: pycyn@aol.com X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 7532 --part1_a0.15689672.284da261_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 6/4/2001 6:20:05 PM Central Daylight Time,=20 jjllambias@hotmail.com writes: > >How is "Laughing and Grief" going by the way. >=20 > I am very pleased with {clacmo} (long-moaning) for {latmo}, > but not quite so satisfied with {geisto} (happy-permanence) for > {xelso}. In any case, the French translation Pierre gave > (patin et echec) or the Spanish one I looked at today (patin > y riego) are better at the sounds but awful at the meanings. >=20 The disasters of other translations (excepting fairly often the Vulgate) is= =20 one of my reasons for pessimism, the other is the four partial translations= =20 (out of what I remember as six) that I have turned up. You are one of abou= t=20 three people who might over come several of the problems that have been=20 traditional in Loglan/Lojban translations, but so far you have only done so= a=20 couple of times.=20=20 As for not reading them, I have read what is available, but the bulk is on = a=20 site aol says does not exist and requires a program (apparently) that my=20 Windows ME will not run (in fact shorts out on). My Wizard is on his way=20 over to look into these matters now. I didn't mean that Lojban has peculiar problems with Alice -- other than th= e=20 total lack of a culture to play off, of course; any translation into any=20 language is going to be iffy at best and likely to be awful (the only one I= =20 know that rises to iffy is the Vulgate and that is because it takes the=20 appropriately loose attitude toward the text). Actually, Lojban has some=20 advantages in doing Alice, courtesy of their mutual connection to logic, bu= t=20 those spots are few and far between. =20 I didn't imagine we would, you are in too deep to get out so easily. All o= f=20 the perpetrators of the specimen I have, though, disappeared without a trac= e=20 within a year of their sending the specimens in and in at least one case th= e=20 reason for dropping out was simply that Loglan was much too hard (Alice bei= ng=20 the only bit tried). Oz is less of a challenge and so less of a triumph if= =20 completed, but also more likely to be completed by some of the folk who are= =20 always saying they want to translate something or that there ought to be mo= re=20 translated but who are not really very good yet. Some people love Oz, thou= gh=20 I think for different reasons than they love Alice or even Wind in the=20 Willows or Pooh I would expect a Spanish version to match a Spanish dance. The Vulgate is= =20 vaguely Virgilian -- not one of its most successful moments, I think. Sinc= e=20 (the old problem again) there are no Lojbanic dances, it is hard to see wha= t=20 the Lojban ought to be. But it should be something believable and that=20 requires a tight rhythm, which yours does not yet have. <>Eventually, we will work out a way of doing some of these >thing, but we haven't yet. We are in the process of doing it. >Do try, but don't complain if we point out that >you haven't made it. There are ways and there are ways. You did not only point out that we haven't made it. You asserted that it is not even possible that we do, and you didn't even look at what's already been done, imperfect as it is. You had already decided beforehand that it would be bad.> Well, I generalized from experience and the samples I had, which tended to= =20 cohere with that experience. As I have said, I'll be delighted to be prove= n=20 wrong (once I get over the shock in this particular case). And if I am not= ,=20 I shall claim the right to complain about the wasted effort again (or, in=20 short, "I told you so") without a lot of carping about it. <>The Quadrille has four bars to the line, each bar four >beats with the stress on the last beat.=A0 The chorus is slightly differen= t, >three iambs and a dactyl.> My wife (who hates Alice, I'm not sure why) insists that the second beat of= =20 each measure is stronger than the odd-numbered ones though weaker than the= =20 fourth. I'm not sure I hear it, nor that it is relevant to your version, s= o=20 I give it for information only. --part1_a0.15689672.284da261_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 6/4/2001 6:20:05 PM Central Daylight Time,=20
jjllambias@hotmail.com writes:


>How is "Laughing and = Grief" going by the way.

I am very pleased with {clacmo} (long-moaning) for {latmo},
but not quite so satisfied with {geisto} (happy-permanence) for
{xelso}. In any case, the French translation Pierre gave
(patin et echec) or the Spanish one I looked at today (patin
y riego) are better at the sounds but awful at the meanings.


The disasters of other translations (excepting fairly often the Vulgate= ) is=20
one of my reasons for pessimism, the other is the four partial translat= ions=20
(out of what I remember as six) that I have turned up.  You are on= e of about=20
three people who might over come several of the problems that have been= =20
traditional in Loglan/Lojban translations, but so far you have only don= e so a=20
couple of times.  
As for not reading them, I have read what is available, but the bulk is= on a=20
site aol says does not exist and requires a program (apparently) that m= y=20
Windows ME will not run (in fact shorts out on).  My Wizard is on = his way=20
over to look into these matters now.
<Indeed, the most difficult parts
are not the puns, those are difficult in any language and necessarily
will not work as perfectly in Lojban as they do in the original, but
I don't see that as a problem specific to Lojban. Where I have most
difficulty is with the vocabulary. Deciding what to do with things
like "yelled the Gryphon at the top of its voice". This kind of thing
will appear in any ordinary translation.>

I didn't mean that Lojban has peculiar problems with Alice -- other tha= n the=20
total lack of a culture to play off, of course; any translation into an= y=20
language is going to be iffy at best and likely to be awful (the only o= ne I=20
know that rises to iffy is the Vulgate and that is because it takes the= =20
appropriately loose attitude toward the text).  Actually, Lojban h= as some=20
advantages in doing Alice, courtesy of their mutual connection to logic= , but=20
those spots are few and far between.

<I promise you you won't lose me out of frustration over Alice. I do= ubt
very much that I would enjoy translating Oz in the same way. Alice is
a book that I like and find interesting, it is much more than a
children's book. Of Oz I know very little and never had much of an
interest to find out more. I might have contributed if it had
been chosen, but probably not so enthusiastically. Also, I think
someone who gets interested in Lojban, say two years from now, will
be much more pleased to know that Alice has been translated to Lojban
than it would be the case with Oz (pure speculation, I know).>=20

I didn't imagine we would, you are in too deep to get out so easily. &n= bsp;All of=20
the perpetrators of the specimen I have, though, disappeared without a = trace=20
within a year of their sending the specimens in and in at least one cas= e the=20
reason for dropping out was simply that Loglan was much too hard (Alice= being=20
the only bit tried).  Oz is less of a challenge and so less of a t= riumph if=20
completed, but also more likely to be completed by some of the folk who= are=20
always saying they want to translate something or that there ought to b= e more=20
translated but who are not really very good yet.  Some people love= Oz, though=20
I think for different reasons than they love Alice or even Wind in the= =20
Willows or Pooh

<BTW, I went into a bookstore today and looked at three different
translations of Alice into Spanish. None of them had a Lobster
Quadrille that matched the rhythmic pattern of the original,
even the rhymes were horrible. I think in Lojban we can do much
better than any of those translations>

I would expect a Spanish version to match a Spanish dance.  The Vu= lgate is=20
vaguely Virgilian -- not one of its most successful moments, I think. &= nbsp;Since=20
(the old problem again) there are no Lojbanic dances, it is hard to see= what=20
the Lojban ought to be.  But it should be something believable and= that=20
requires a tight rhythm, which yours does not yet have.

<>Eventually, we will work out a way of doing some of these
>thing, but we haven't yet.

We are in the process of doing it.

>Do try, but don't complain if we point out that
>you haven't made it.

There are ways and there are ways. You did not only point out
that we haven't made it. You asserted that it is not even
possible that we do, and you didn't even look at what's already
been done, imperfect as it is. You had already decided beforehand
that it would be bad.>

Well, I generalized from experience and the samples I had, which tended= to=20
cohere with that experience.  As I have said, I'll be delighted to= be proven=20
wrong (once I get over the shock in this particular case).  And if= I am not,=20
I shall claim the right to complain about the wasted effort again (or, = in=20
short, "I told you so") without a lot of carping about it.

<>The Quadrille has four bars to the line, each bar four
>beats with the stress on the last beat.=A0 The chorus is slightly d= ifferent,
>three iambs and a dactyl.>

My wife (who hates Alice, I'm not sure why) insists that the second bea= t of=20
each measure is stronger than the odd-numbered ones though weaker than = the=20
fourth.  I'm not sure I hear it, nor that it is relevant to your v= ersion, so=20
I give it for information only.


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