From pycyn@aol.com Fri Jun 01 01:33:32 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: Pycyn@aol.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 1 Jun 2001 08:33:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 54718 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2001 08:33:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 1 Jun 2001 08:33:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r07.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.103) by mta1 with SMTP; 1 Jun 2001 08:33:31 -0000 Received: from Pycyn@aol.com by imo-r07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v30.22.) id r.9.164dffb9 (4539) for ; Fri, 1 Jun 2001 04:33:29 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <9.164dffb9.2848ad59@aol.com> Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 04:33:29 EDT Subject: Re: [lojban] zo by To: lojban@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_9.164dffb9.2848ad59_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10519 From: pycyn@aol.com X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 7435 --part1_9.164dffb9.2848ad59_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/31/2001 7:06:35 PM Central Daylight Time, jjllambias@hotmail.com writes: > la pycyn cusku di'e > > >Hmmmm! How does one > >say in Lojban to a kid learning his letters "This is "b""? > > {ti du zo by} or {ti me zo by}, I suppose. > > It seems that {zo by} can refer (at least) to the Lojban word "by", > to the letter "b" and the (Lojbanic) sound of that letter. > > i zo by lerfu > i zo by valsi > i zo by sance > > Is that right? > Lord, I HOPE not. That kind of ambiguity (which carries on through, note, to make an ambiguity of {by} itself) would be a kind of disaster for a logical langauge. pe'I by lerfu .i zo by valsi But, but, but ... {by} is used as a variable or an anaphora, so {by lerfu} is ambiguous in context and certainly not always true. /b/ is a token of the type [b] and {by} stands for the type, so "This is "b"" is probably (in the present sense) {ti me by}. Lojban doesn't do types (nor tokens, come to that) well, so maybe they are like masses or maybe they are like kinds: {ti du pisu'o by}{ti du pa by} even {ti du by} (with some quantifiers or other gizmos understood). Maybe this is all backwards and {by} should stand for the sound (but freeze is in effect) and then the letter would be {bybu} (like Sanskrit, a much more oral tradition). Failing that, I suppose the sound has to be "the b-sound" {le bybusrsance} -- maybe {lo} and surely needing some cleaning up as a whatever the heck it turns out to be. --part1_9.164dffb9.2848ad59_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/31/2001 7:06:35 PM Central Daylight Time,
jjllambias@hotmail.com writes:


la pycyn cusku di'e

>Hmmmm! How does one
>say in Lojban to a kid learning his letters "This is "b""?

{ti du zo by} or {ti me zo by}, I suppose.

It seems that {zo by} can refer (at least) to the Lojban word "by",
to the letter "b" and the (Lojbanic) sound of that letter.

i zo by lerfu
i zo by valsi
i zo by sance

Is that right?


Lord, I HOPE not.  That kind of ambiguity (which carries on through, note, to
make an ambiguity of {by} itself) would be a kind of disaster for a logical
langauge.

pe'I by lerfu .i zo by valsi
But, but, but ...
      {by} is used as a variable or an anaphora, so {by lerfu} is ambiguous
in context and certainly not always true.
      /b/ is a token of the type [b] and {by} stands for the type, so "This
is "b"" is probably (in the present sense) {ti me by}.  Lojban doesn't do
types (nor tokens, come to that) well, so maybe they are like masses or maybe
they are like kinds: {ti du pisu'o by}{ti du pa by} even {ti du by} (with
some quantifiers or other gizmos understood).
      Maybe this is all backwards and {by} should stand for the sound (but
freeze is in effect) and then the letter would be {bybu} (like Sanskrit, a
much more oral tradition).
      Failing that, I suppose the sound has to be "the b-sound" {le
bybusrsance} -- maybe {lo} and surely needing some cleaning up as a whatever
the heck it turns out to be.
       --part1_9.164dffb9.2848ad59_boundary--