From pycyn@aol.com Fri Jun 15 12:05:07 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: Pycyn@aol.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 15 Jun 2001 19:05:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 96232 invoked from network); 15 Jun 2001 19:05:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 15 Jun 2001 19:05:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m04.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.7) by mta2 with SMTP; 15 Jun 2001 19:05:05 -0000 Received: from Pycyn@aol.com by imo-m04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v30.22.) id r.c3.1209b3a4 (17377) for ; Fri, 15 Jun 2001 15:04:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 15:04:43 EDT Subject: The "system" of attitudinals To: lojban@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_c3.1209b3a4.285bb64b_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10519 From: pycyn@aol.com X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 8040 --part1_c3.1209b3a4.285bb64b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We have two and a half choices so far, neither of which involves any change of grammar or vocabulary -- yet. 1) Keep the present system but clean up the presentation and make maybe a few additions or modifications if clearly needed. Advantages: no change is almost always an advantage. a lot of documentation and accepted usage. easy rhetorical devices with position of UI. Disadvantages: It is going to take a lot of rewriting, as the presentation so far has not dealt consistently or clearly with what have become the major issues. the features of major interest are currently only loosely connected with form, so each word has to be learned separately (claimed). known cases of inadequacy (a'o) not dealt with and no program for dealing with other cases that may be discovered. present cases limited to parallels with English, no allowance for new, Lojbanic, discoveries. 2) Different functions of attitudinals marked by different positions in sentence (beginning, after sumti, after selbri, isolated, ...). the exact rules have varied from proposer to proposer. Advantages: leaves no doubt about the major questions (assertiveness, proximate,..) for any UI. opens up a number of new possibilities which might give Lojbanic results. probably could be written up as easily as the present could be brought up to speed, maybe easier. Disadvantages: The present corpus (several thousand pages) would have to be checked at least, and probably revised into conformity. Many, perhaps most, of the new possibilities will prove to be useless. The known problem cases have not yet clearly been dealt with. Rhetorical use of position lost. 2.5 (not a serious proposal yet) keep the present system with the addition of a small number (max at 4) additional flags to indicate that an attitudinal is being used outside its usual role. Advantages: keeps rhetorical use of position. would deal immediately with known inadequacies. Diasadvantages: all the rest of 1 plus the immediate need to add new expressions. New cases allowed are not all going to be useful, probably. --part1_c3.1209b3a4.285bb64b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We have two and a half choices so far, neither of which involves any change
of grammar or vocabulary -- yet.
1) Keep the present system but clean up the presentation and make maybe a few
additions or modifications if clearly needed.
      Advantages: no change is almost always an advantage. a lot of
documentation and accepted usage. easy rhetorical devices with position of UI.
      Disadvantages: It is going to take a lot of rewriting, as the
presentation so far has not dealt consistently or clearly with what have
become the major issues. the features of major interest are currently only
loosely connected with form, so each word has to be learned separately
(claimed). known cases of inadequacy (a'o) not dealt with and no program for
dealing with other cases that may be discovered. present cases limited to
parallels with English, no allowance for new, Lojbanic, discoveries.

2) Different functions of attitudinals marked by different positions in
sentence (beginning, after sumti, after selbri, isolated, ...). the exact
rules have varied from proposer to proposer.
      Advantages: leaves no doubt about the major questions (assertiveness,
proximate,..) for any UI. opens up a number of new possibilities which might
give Lojbanic results. probably could be written up as easily as the present
could be brought up to speed, maybe easier.
      Disadvantages: The present corpus (several thousand pages) would have
to be checked at least, and probably revised into conformity. Many, perhaps
most, of the new possibilities will prove to be useless. The known problem
cases have not yet clearly been dealt with. Rhetorical use of position lost.

2.5 (not a serious proposal yet) keep the present system with the addition
of a small number (max at 4) additional flags to indicate that an attitudinal
is being used outside its usual role.
      Advantages: keeps rhetorical use of position. would deal immediately
with known inadequacies.
      Diasadvantages: all the rest of 1 plus the immediate need to add new
expressions. New cases allowed are not all going to be useful, probably. --part1_c3.1209b3a4.285bb64b_boundary--