From jjllambias@hotmail.com Sun Jun 03 19:24:23 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: jjllambias@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 4 Jun 2001 02:24:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 71300 invoked from network); 4 Jun 2001 02:24:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 4 Jun 2001 02:24:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (216.33.241.135) by mta2 with SMTP; 4 Jun 2001 02:24:22 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 3 Jun 2001 19:24:22 -0700 Received: from 200.69.11.233 by lw8fd.law8.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 04 Jun 2001 02:24:22 GMT X-Originating-IP: [200.69.11.233] To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Bcc: Subject: Re: [lojban] More Alice Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 02:24:22 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Jun 2001 02:24:22.0494 (UTC) FILETIME=[777AEFE0:01C0EC9D] From: "Jorge Llambias" X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 7493 la pycyn cusku di'e >Well, it was a play with words, but hardly a play ON words and pretty >surely >not a pun (maybe 2/3, as the saying goes -- but I doubt that). I probably don't understand the meaning of "pun" then. In fact there is no common word like it in Spanish, we just say "juego de palabras" (wordplay). In any case, in the meantime I think I have a slightly improved version (thanks to the useful comments!): i le ralju cu junri ke tolcitno cakyrespa gi'e se cmene lu ractu cafmi'a li'u mi'a The master was a _solemn_ old Turtle we used to call 'Rabbit Often-Laugher' i lu ki'u ma do'o te cmene ra lu ractu cafmi'a li'u va'o le nu ra genai ractu ginai cafmi'a sei la alis te preti li'u "Why did you call him Rabbit Often-Laugher, if he was neither a rabbit nor an often-laugher?" Alice asked. i mi'a te cmene ra lu ractu cafmi'a li'u ki'u le nu ra ctuca mi'a sei le jitfa cakyrespa cu fange cusku "We called him Rabbit Often-Laugher because he taught us,' said the Mock Turtle angrily Solemn "Often-Laugher" is actually not bad at all, since it fits well with the cyclothymic nature of the Mock Turtle, and also the "Laughing and Grief" taught by the Classical master. >The point is, >if you try to translate a nearly perfect pun, you ought not be satisfied >with >a really imperfect one; I was not really satisfied with it. The whole thing is still a work in progress. I will spare you for the moment what I have done to the "lessons" (that "lessen" from day to day). >a total miss is better (maybe with the note that "it >loses something inn the translation"). I think you're right. Obviously there will be some misses, any translation is like that, not just into Lojban. But it doesn't hurt to try and explore a little before giving up. I don't have anything yet for "no wise fish would go anywhere without a porpoise". >The Lobster Quadrille looks passable in that (no surprise here -- like >Chinese, it is hard not to rhyme in Lojban) it rhymes fairly closely, but >it >is not a quadrille or any other regular dance step, though the chorus comes >close. Could you be more specific? I thought I had matched the English rhythm pretty well. Where did I miss? It is certainly modifyable where needed. >Is it time for another round on what Lojban poetry will be like, given that >neither rhyme nor rhythm are likely to play major roles? In any case, a >dance would be a bad candidate for an early contribution. Why? I don't understand the defeatism. mu'o mi'e xorxes _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.