From pycyn@aol.com Wed Jun 20 05:53:20 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: Pycyn@aol.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 20 Jun 2001 12:53:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 13711 invoked from network); 20 Jun 2001 12:53:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 20 Jun 2001 12:53:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r05.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.101) by mta2 with SMTP; 20 Jun 2001 12:53:19 -0000 Received: from Pycyn@aol.com by imo-r05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v30.22.) id r.8f.c1b9c7b (3982) for ; Wed, 20 Jun 2001 08:53:13 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <8f.c1b9c7b.2861f6b9@aol.com> Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 08:53:13 EDT Subject: Re: [lojban] dai harder (was: If it ain't broke, don't fix it (was: an approa... To: lojban@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_8f.c1b9c7b.2861f6b9_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10519 From: pycyn@aol.com X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 8183 --part1_8f.c1b9c7b.2861f6b9_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/19/2001 9:42:16 PM Central Daylight Time, xod@sixgirls.org writes: > ru'a dada'o nabmi fi le zu'o za'o lanli le jbovalsi bau le glibau .i mu'a > casnu dei co'a le ka dukse pensi zoi zoi. empathy .zoi .i ku'i le de'u > jbosnu pu tugni stidi le jbosmuni be zo dai .i ju'osai le ba jboka'e ba > selfarvi pilno zo dai tai la'ede'u ki'u la'ede'u > Gee, too bad xod will miss this, but I think he is right that we get into trouble because of discussing Lojban in English. Not that we would do better in Lojban. The English problem is the dreadful techinical vocabulary that has been a charateristic of Loglan/Lojban since JCB's hideous "metaphor" ({tanru}) at least, "empathy," "assertion," and even "proposition" are now causing problems. As for doing better in Lojban, have you read the Lojban messages lately. They are like the old messages for your Captain Midnight decoder ring: they take a long time to decode and then turn out to be utterly banal, So much effort goes into getting it into Lojban that there is little left for having something to say. I urge people to keep them up, of course, since they can't get better until they come easily. But for serious work, we'd better stick to a language we can think in. (Another problem with Lojban discussions is that, since there is no Lojban culture but the language, we have no other topics to discuss and yet the language has nothing to build upon for real cases to test the discussion. It's a vicious circle and it is harder to build the culture that the language skills.) --part1_8f.c1b9c7b.2861f6b9_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/19/2001 9:42:16 PM Central Daylight Time,
xod@sixgirls.org writes:

ru'a dada'o nabmi fi le zu'o za'o lanli le jbovalsi bau le glibau .i mu'a
casnu dei co'a le ka dukse pensi zoi zoi. empathy .zoi .i ku'i le de'u
jbosnu pu tugni stidi le jbosmuni be zo dai .i ju'osai le ba jboka'e ba
selfarvi pilno zo dai tai la'ede'u ki'u la'ede'u

Gee, too bad xod will miss this, but I think he is right that we get into
trouble because of discussing Lojban in English. Not that we would do better
in Lojban. The English problem is the dreadful techinical vocabulary that
has been a charateristic of Loglan/Lojban since JCB's hideous "metaphor"
({tanru}) at least, "empathy," "assertion," and even "proposition" are now
causing problems. As for doing better in Lojban, have you read the Lojban
messages lately. They are like the old messages for your Captain Midnight
decoder ring: they take a long time to decode and then turn out to be utterly
banal, So much effort goes into getting it into Lojban that there is little
left for having something to say. I urge people to keep them up, of course,
since they can't get better until they come easily. But for serious work,
we'd better stick to a language we can think in. (Another problem with
Lojban discussions is that, since there is no Lojban culture but the
language, we have no other topics to discuss and yet the language has nothing
to build upon for real cases to test the discussion. It's a vicious circle
and it is harder to build the culture that the language skills.)
--part1_8f.c1b9c7b.2861f6b9_boundary--