From pycyn@aol.com Sun Jun 03 12:01:52 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: Pycyn@aol.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 3 Jun 2001 19:01:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 58058 invoked from network); 3 Jun 2001 19:01:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 3 Jun 2001 19:01:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d07.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.39) by mta2 with SMTP; 3 Jun 2001 19:01:52 -0000 Received: from Pycyn@aol.com by imo-d07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v30.22.) id r.81.b75ee53 (3931) for ; Sun, 3 Jun 2001 15:01:46 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <81.b75ee53.284be39a@aol.com> Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 15:01:46 EDT Subject: RE: Rabbity Sand-Laugher To: lojban@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_81.b75ee53.284be39a_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10519 From: pycyn@aol.com X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 7477 --part1_81.b75ee53.284be39a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I want to make it clear that I think finding that phrase was remarkably clever. It can't be easy to find that close a match in a language which is designed to be uniquely decomposable. I deserves some kind of medal. What it does not deserve is to be called a good pun (oxymoron or no). The name, unlike that in the original, is unmotivated and so does not fit in. And I don't see how to motivate it within the story, even sensibly modified. My objection to this -- and the whole Alice translation project -- is not to the quality. That it is not very good is inevitable, and so not worth objecting to. My complaint is about the fact that it is done at all. I have often commented on the oddity of people taking up "the logical language" and then bitching about the logic. I find a similar kind of perversity in taking up a language without a literary tradition -- let alone one for children ("bad poems for good children") -- or an underlying culture and then trying to translate into it a piece that is page in and page out a parody of and a play off that tradition and that culture. If I, a Dodo clone (logician, college teacher, game maker, punster, Anglican deacon trainee, admirer of the mysteries that are little girls, photographer, and on and on), have refrained from translating any of Alice for 25 years because of my awareness of the total inappropriateness of doing so, whence -- ignorance aside -- come the chutzpah of people with none or few of these qualities and only a passing understanding of either Alice and its world or Lojban to take on this task. Are there no other books deserving of translation to take your skills out on, ones to which the skills would be appropriate? What about Oz or Willows (I an only think of about a half dozen problem in Oz; there are that many on an average page in Alice) or Pooh (aside from the saccharine spelling -- as Dorothy Parker, writing as Constant Reader remarked "Tonstant Weader fwowed up"), if you must do children's books. Or, as someone suggested, Tintin (not Asterix, which is almost up to Alice in puns at least). Or finish the Bible before taking on anything else (well, there are problems there, but there is already a good tradition of circumventing them -- the Vulgate Alice is no better on Tortoise than the Lojban: even after changing the second part of the joke it relies on a dubious nickname). Or pick on someone your own size: an adult novel: David Copperfield deserves translation into Lojban -- spelling asiide again -- or The Catcher in the Rye or some other modern classic, if Victorian is too much a problem outside of kiddylit. Oops, I did a scratch translation of the beginning of the Knight's introduction to his song once, to make a point about names, naming, calling and the like -- a logical point, not a translation as such. --part1_81.b75ee53.284be39a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I want to make it clear that I think finding that phrase was remarkably
clever. It can't be easy to find that close a match in a language which is
designed to be uniquely decomposable. I deserves some kind of medal. What
it does not deserve is to be called a good pun (oxymoron or no). The name,
unlike that in the original, is unmotivated and so does not fit in. And I
don't see how to motivate it within the story, even sensibly modified.
My objection to this -- and the whole Alice translation project -- is not to
the quality. That it is not very good is inevitable, and so not worth
objecting to. My complaint is about the fact that it is done at all. I have
often commented on the oddity of people taking up "the logical language" and
then bitching about the logic. I find a similar kind of perversity in taking
up a language without a literary tradition -- let alone one for children
("bad poems for good children") -- or an underlying culture and then trying
to translate into it a piece that is page in and page out a parody of and a
play off that tradition and that culture. If I, a Dodo clone (logician,
college teacher, game maker, punster, Anglican deacon trainee, admirer of the
mysteries that are little girls, photographer, and on and on), have refrained
from translating any of Alice for 25 years because of my awareness of the
total inappropriateness of doing so, whence -- ignorance aside -- come the
chutzpah of people with none or few of these qualities and only a passing
understanding of either Alice and its world or Lojban to take on this task.
Are there no other books deserving of translation to take your skills out on,
ones to which the skills would be appropriate? What about Oz or Willows (I
an only think of about a half dozen problem in Oz; there are that many on an
average page in Alice) or Pooh (aside from the saccharine spelling -- as
Dorothy Parker, writing as Constant Reader remarked "Tonstant Weader fwowed
up"), if you must do children's books. Or, as someone suggested, Tintin (not
Asterix, which is almost up to Alice in puns at least). Or finish the Bible
before taking on anything else (well, there are problems there, but there is
already a good tradition of circumventing them -- the Vulgate Alice is no
better on Tortoise than the Lojban: even after changing the second part of
the joke it relies on a dubious nickname). Or pick on someone your own size:
an adult novel: David Copperfield deserves translation into Lojban --
spelling asiide again -- or The Catcher in the Rye or some other modern
classic, if Victorian is too much a problem outside of kiddylit.
Oops, I did a scratch translation of the beginning of the Knight's
introduction to his song once, to make a point about names, naming, calling
and the like -- a logical point, not a translation as such. --part1_81.b75ee53.284be39a_boundary--