From araizen@newmail.net Sun Jul 29 12:03:19 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: araizen@newmail.net X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 29 Jul 2001 19:03:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 91927 invoked from network); 29 Jul 2001 19:03:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 29 Jul 2001 19:03:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n20.groups.yahoo.com) (216.115.96.70) by mta2 with SMTP; 29 Jul 2001 19:03:18 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: araizen@newmail.net Received: from [10.1.2.211] by c9.egroups.com with NNFMP; 29 Jul 2001 19:03:18 -0000 Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 19:03:16 -0000 To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Editorial comment Message-ID: <9k1mlk+73ju@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2217 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 62.0.182.35 From: "Adam Raizen" X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 9005 la and cusku di'e > > Each person seeing each person could be expressed as "le'i > > ci prenu cu visysi'u", perhaps. > > This is not satisfactory. We want a generalizable method, not one > that relies on changing the selbri. > > Something like: > > le ci prenu ku goi ko'a viska ro ko'a > > while "ci da poi prenu cu viska vo'a" would be equivalent to > > le ci prenu goi ko'a viska (ro) ko'a I don't see the difference between assigning the ko'a or not, or between whether the 'goi'-phrase goes before or after the 'ku'. The outer quantifier on "le ci prenu" is "ro", and so it shouldn't make a difference whether the 'goi' is before or after the 'ku'. (Also, I don't like making distinctions based on whether the relative phrase is before or after the 'ku'.) On thinking about the problem further, here's what I came up with (incorporating xorxes' understanding of double quantification): "vo'a", like a second, unquantified "da", indicates each of the referents of the original members of the set parallelly, i.e. ci da poi prenu cu viska da/vo'a Three people see themself. le ci prenu cu viska vo'a The three people see themself. (each see themself, a sees a, b sees b, and c sees c.) If vo'a (the first time) or da (the second+ time) are quantified, then it takes the specified number from the original set. So: ci da poi prenu cu viska ro da Three people see all people. (where set the taken from is the set of all people) ci da poi prenu cu viska ro vo'a Three people see each of them. (where the set taken from is the aforementioned three people.) le ci prenu cu viska ro vo'a The three people see each of them (a sees a,b,c, etc.) And it can probably apply to the rest of the anaphoric pronouns (ko'a, ri, ra, ru, etc.) gaps in the book: I think that when an unresolved point or a gap in the book comes up, we should debate it to death, and then when a consensus is reach, or else (in the more likely case) that several opposing opinions get crystalized, we should put up the various positions on the wiki, and then let informed usage decide. In this way, the wiki may eventually come to completely expound all the parts that the book missed. mu'o mi'e adam