From jjllambias@hotmail.com Mon Jul 16 19:56:44 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: jjllambias@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 17 Jul 2001 02:56:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 13017 invoked from network); 17 Jul 2001 02:56:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 17 Jul 2001 02:56:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (216.33.241.86) by mta1 with SMTP; 17 Jul 2001 02:56:38 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 16 Jul 2001 19:56:38 -0700 Received: from 200.41.247.54 by lw8fd.law8.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 17 Jul 2001 02:56:38 GMT X-Originating-IP: [200.41.247.54] To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Bcc: Subject: Re: [lojban] Looking down: executive summary? Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 02:56:38 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Jul 2001 02:56:38.0710 (UTC) FILETIME=[19514D60:01C10E6C] From: "Jorge Llambias" X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 8654 la nitcion cusku di'e >Because of the keyword {farna}, and Jorge's suggestion {fa'a ni'a catlu}, >I had the impression that, whereas other spatial tenses describe an >imaginary journey from the speaker to the event or object, Not to some object, always to the event. And not necessarily from the speaker but from whatever the contextual reference happens to be, maybe often the speaker, but obviously not in non-present narrations. >{fa'a} does >not, but merely states the direction in which the event is pointing, That's how I understand it, and we do need something for that meaning. >or >the speaker is pointing relative to the object. Not the speaker! Always the event. Tenses are always of the event, not of the speaker nor of any of the arguments by themselves. >When we say {mi bacru ni'a >le bloti}, we mean that there is a downwards imaginary journey from the >boat to me. To "my speaking" rather than to "me", but yes. >When we say {do ni'a bacru}, we mean that there is a downwards >imaginary journey from me to where you are speaking. Yes, from me or from whatever the contextual reference point happens to be. >My impression was >that, instead, {mi bacru fa'a le bloti} means, not that there is an >imaginary journey from me towards the boat (i.e. saying where the boat is >relative to me), but merely that my speaking is >pointing towards the boat. And likewise, that {mi fa'a bacru} meant that >my speaking was somehow pointing in some direction. That's my understanding. >this is not engaging >in obscurantism for the sake of it, and would indeed be the first thing >anyone exposed to directional tenses would do with English directional >adverbs. If you cannot do this with Lojban spatial tenses, and they >indicate only locations and not orientations, then so be it; Lojban spatial tenses are much more useless than they appear at first sight... >And if the Lessons are pitched at the wrong level, then I'm happy to let >someone else take them over; they've taken three months as is, and I don't >have the time for a radical rewrite. You have done a most excellent job, the more of these issues you deal with the better as far as I am concerned. mu'o mi'e xorxes _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.