From pycyn@aol.com Sat Aug 11 16:41:52 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: Pycyn@aol.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_1); 11 Aug 2001 23:41:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 11123 invoked from network); 11 Aug 2001 23:41:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 11 Aug 2001 23:41:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r03.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.99) by mta2 with SMTP; 11 Aug 2001 23:41:49 -0000 Received: from Pycyn@aol.com by imo-r03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31.9.) id r.be.18994738 (4541) for ; Sat, 11 Aug 2001 19:41:34 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 19:41:38 EDT Subject: Re: [lojban] Another preliminary note on Indirect Questions To: lojban@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_be.18994738.28a71cb2_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10531 From: pycyn@aol.com X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 9433 --part1_be.18994738.28a71cb2_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 8/11/2001 5:06:50 PM Central Daylight Time,=20 a.rosta@ntlworld.com writes: > They are, grammatically, interrogative clauses. And we have been renderin= g > them into Lojban using Q-kau. >=20 This is part, at least, of the point at issue; they are clauses, perhaps, b= ut=20 seem to have no connection to interrogatives except the WH words, which are= =20 used for all sorts of things. To be sure, some relations are beginning to= =20 emerge, but it seems a mistake to assume that there is going to be one answ= er=20 that will fit all these cases. It seems better to deal with the various=20 cases and then see if anything ties them together.=20 <> In fact, each of the "questions" seems to be a roundabout way of saying > "height," a different category altogether. Not a different category altogether. "He knows my height", "He asked my height", "He decided (on) the height of the hatstand he was making" -- here "height" is a covert interrogative (as in "He asked the time"), as it would be in the examples above.> Sorry, I don't see it. "He asked my height" is interrogative because of=20 "ask;" the others don't seem to have any interrogative element at all. The= =20 may share a certain vagueness, ranginess, using a cover word for a specific= =20 (though the question one does not have that feature), but what has that to = do=20 with questions (I have an answer, of course, but, since I don't know how it= =20 works, I'll leave the question stand).=20=20 I tend to use "question" and "interrogative" interchangeably or for making= =20 some technical point. What is the technical point here? <> And using that notion does point to the usual > tale that questions are in some way the set of answers.=A0 The details --= and > especially the grammatical ones -- need a lot of working out, but perhaps= =20 the > fundamental unity is there.=A0 Until it is, I think we should lay off the > "question" part for clarity. I don't understand that last sentence.> As I said, I think we should treat these as different things -- and=20 especially not get hung up on the question cases -- until we have some=20 evidence of a connection among them and how they fit in. We have cases of= =20 generalizing one kind of item into others that look somehow the same, but n= ot=20 in any explained way, and we have ended up with muddled and befuddling=20 categories (tense, e.g.). --part1_be.18994738.28a71cb2_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 8/11/2001 5:06:50 PM Central Daylight Time,=20
a.rosta@ntlworld.com writes:

They are, grammatically, = interrogative clauses. And we have been rendering
them into Lojban using Q-kau.

This is part, at least, of the point at issue; they are clauses, perhap= s, but=20
seem to have no connection to interrogatives except the WH words, which= are=20
used for all sorts of things. To be sure, some relations are begi= nning to=20
emerge, but it seems a mistake to assume that there is going to be one = answer=20
that will fit all these cases. It seems better to deal with the v= arious=20
cases and then see if anything ties them together.=20

<> In fact, each of the "questions" seems to be a roundabout way = of saying
> "height," a different category altogether.

Not a different category altogether. "He knows my height", "He asked my
height", "He decided (on) the height of the hatstand he was making" --
here "height" is a covert interrogative (as in "He asked the time"), as
it would be in the examples above.>

Sorry, I don't see it. "He asked my height" is interrogative beca= use of=20
"ask;" the others don't seem to have any interrogative element at all. = The=20
may share a certain vagueness, ranginess, using a cover word for a spec= ific=20
(though the question one does not have that feature), but what has that= to do=20
with questions (I have an answer, of course, but, since I don't know ho= w it=20
works, I'll leave the question stand).

<Of course it seems silly to call these "(indirect) questions", but
direct and indirect questions belong nondistinctly to the more general
class of what for want of a better term are called 'interrogatives',
which also includes cases like the ones above.>

I tend to use "question" and "interrogative" interchangeably or for mak= ing=20
some technical point. What is the technical point here?

<> And using that notion does point to the usual
> tale that questions are in some way the set of answers.=A0 The det= ails -- and
> especially the grammatical ones -- need a lot of working out, but = perhaps=20
the
> fundamental unity is there.=A0 Until it is, I think we should lay = off the
> "question" part for clarity.

I don't understand that last sentence.>

As I said, I think we should treat these as different things -- and=20
especially not get hung up on the question cases -- until we have some= =20
evidence of a connection among them and how they fit in. We have = cases of=20
generalizing one kind of item into others that look somehow the same, b= ut not=20
in any explained way, and we have ended up with muddled and befuddling= =20
categories (tense, e.g.).

--part1_be.18994738.28a71cb2_boundary--