From a.rosta@ntlworld.com Fri Aug 10 13:32:49 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: a.rosta@ntlworld.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_1); 10 Aug 2001 20:32:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 89749 invoked from network); 10 Aug 2001 20:32:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 10 Aug 2001 20:32:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mta05-svc.ntlworld.com) (62.253.162.45) by mta3 with SMTP; 10 Aug 2001 20:32:48 -0000 Received: from andrew ([62.253.88.162]) by mta05-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with SMTP id <20010810203246.ZSIJ20588.mta05-svc.ntlworld.com@andrew> for ; Fri, 10 Aug 2001 21:32:46 +0100 To: Subject: RE: [lojban] Re: ka + makau (was: ce'u (was: vliju'a Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 21:31:51 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 From: "And Rosta" X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 9398 John: > Bob LeChevalier (lojbab) scripsit: > > > Mary knows that the tallest boy went to the store, does not mean that Mary > > knows that John went to the store if she does not know that John is the > > name of the tallest boy. > > I deny this, even in English, I hope you will accept that, as with John knowing Ortcut is a spy, the English is susceptible to a reading which does entail Mary knows John went to the store and a reading which doesn't. > but even more so in Lojban where names are at the discretion of the namer. ... which is one reason why I gag at having to use cmene. I'd much rather use fu'ivla, but given that fu'ivla have to be unambiguous, it seems untenable to have at least one fu'ivla per nameable entity in the universa, or even per human being. > If I know that the planet Venus has a surface temperature of 900 deg. C, > then I know that the planet Freya has a surface temp. of 900 C, > even if I do not know that Freya = Venus. Factoring names out of the discussion, by, say, changing Freya to "thing standardly called _freya_", I do agree with Lojbab: I think "He knows that something called 'freya' is 900 deg" is false in the relevant scenario, and to be true must be rephrased as Something called freya is known by him to be 900 deg. Something called Freya is such that he knows that it is 900 deg. In Lojban, this is. I'm not talking about English now. > In this hypo, I would be prepared to affirm "I do not know that > the planet Freya has a surface temp. etc. etc.", but I would be > in error. mi very much na tugni --And.