From dpctrdk@earthlink.net Mon Aug 13 21:48:58 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: dpctrdk@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_1); 14 Aug 2001 04:48:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 71445 invoked from network); 14 Aug 2001 04:48:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 14 Aug 2001 04:48:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.121.50) by mta1 with SMTP; 14 Aug 2001 04:48:57 -0000 Received: from earthlink.net (dialup-63.210.225.178.Dial1.Cincinnati1.Level3.net [63.210.225.178]) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA17721 for ; Mon, 13 Aug 2001 21:48:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B78AC21.71B433EB@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 04:42:10 +0000 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Transliterations survey References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: David Crowell X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 9591 These are my evalutions (reasons they could be used, or languages in which it is transliterated (te xemfanvyle'u (or pronounced) on different transliterations, with possible addition that other or I originate (marked - and -- respectively) Note the languages I mention might not use these, but I have seen them use it with the same sound) Muenchen (= Munich), Germany munxen. (most recognizable due to modern German spelling) miunxen to distinguish from Munchen (without umlaut), Russian, Japanese, and other commonly do the vowel this way. minxen Greek (spelled mu-hypsilon (my), Yiddish, and possible others use pronunciation due to thier transcription) - muncen, muncyn (to my ears,. that is the way that Germans prounce -ch- in this word) -- muinxen, (from Korean Yale transcription Mwinhey) Koeln (= Cologne), Germany koln. (modern German spelling) kioln. (same idea used for miunxen to mark the umlautization), Russian (spelled as an umlauted e - ë) keln. Done in Yiddish, Greek (I would guess from what Nick wrote), Japanese would do this.German oe - kyln (I do not like this, because it is based on a common English pronunciation schwa or ur to imitate this sound) -- koiln (via the common Korean Yale transcription for this vowel: oy) Cote d'Azur (= French Riviera), France kot.daZUR. (simple, matches original spelling) kot.daZIUR. Russian, Japanese. kot.daZIR. (Yiddish, Greek) -- kot.dazuir (from the common Korean Yale transliteration for the French u) Villeneuve, France vilNOV. (used due to match munxen and koln transcription) vilNIOV. Russian vilNEV. Yiddish, Greek Fukushima, Japan fukucima. (Best one, imo, fits with Japanese spelling and standard xemfanvyle'u of English (as well as a few other languages) fikicima. (I find this unacceptable because it could easily be confused for Fukishima or Fikishima (spelled in Japanese hu,small-i, si) fykycima. (Fits with the weak -u- pronunciation, but iffy, because could be confused for my possible -fikicima- reverse te xemfanvyle'u) DiyarbakIr, Turkey di,iarbaKUR. (imo, unacceptable, could easily be confused with hypothetical Diyarbakur). But the final vowel does fit the way the Korean pronounce their Yale -u- (the whole word would te xemfanvyle'u in Korean Yale as Tiyalupakulu) di,iarbaKIR. (best one, people fanuliar with the vowel harmony qualities of Turkish would recognize this for Turkish undotted i) di,iarbaKYR. (good one, y- could in theory be use for all uses of Turkish undotted i in cmeme) -- di,iarbakuir (I sometimes would use to match a basic pattern to advoid using the i or the schwa sound (Lojban -y- sound) - di,arbakur (I tend to avoid double -i- and double -u- (here seperated by slakabu) in Lojban translation Bourgogne (= Burgundy), France burGON. (easiest to write and pronounce) burGONiy. Japanese and Korean use a buffer vowel like this. burGOIN. (Basque uses this spelling technique to mark patalization of their -n, but when vowels follow this palatal, an older Basque orthography uses the Spanish ñ (tilde n) Marseilles, France (this is a bad choice for syllable final palatal -l which I assume this example tries to focus on) Bad choice marSEI. This is the way I would think that French would pronounce this word Syllable-final palatal -l- would be better focused on with the Catalan -xoll (using Nick's choices for final-syllabic choices for palatal -n) col (easiest to write and pronounce) COLy Japanese and Korean use a buffer vowel like this coil (Basque uses this spelling technique to mark patalization of their -l, but when vowels follow this palatal, an older Basque orthography uses the Spanish -ll- Magyaroszag (= Hungary) (noting but ignoring the final. but irrelevant, long á typo) (appears to focus on palatal Hungary -gy, if I am correct the unvoiced equivalent is Hungarian -ty) MAdiarosag. (fits, most accurately (if I remember correctly) with Hungarian pronunciation) MAdjarosag. palatal d is sometimes pronounced as a dj, for example in the dialect of English I grew up with. MAgiarosag. (fits only with Hungary spelling) MAgarosag. (simplifies the -gy- to a -g) The Albanian exmaples I ignore due to my ignorance of these sounds.