From rob@twcny.rr.com Tue Aug 28 14:53:17 2001
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Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 17:51:01 -0400
To: lojban@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] Another stab at a Record on ce'u
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From: Rob Speer <rob@twcny.rr.com>
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On Tue, Aug 28, 2001 at 07:14:16PM +0100, And Rosta wrote:
> 1. All empty sumti places within du'u fill with zo'e.
> 2. In ka abstractions, the first empty place fills with ce'u and the 
>    rest fill with zo'e.
>    Exception (or generalization): where context indisputably demands 
>    a ka abstraction expressing an n-adic relation, where the value of 
>    n is certain, the first n empty places fill with ce'u and the rest 
>    with zo'e.
> 3. EITHER (XOR):
>    3a. In a ka abstraction, if an overt ce'u fills the x1 then all 
>        following empty places fill with ce'u.
>    XOR:
>    3b. In a ka abstraction, if a ce'u precedes the first empty place
>        then all following empty places fill with ce'u.

Whoa! How did we end up here?

I still haven't seen any useful sentences involving more than 2 {ce'u}s. 3a and
3b both turn {le ka ce'u klama} into {le ka ce'u klama ce'u ce'u ce'u ce'u},
completely obliterating the meaning and actually _forcing_ you to elide the
first {ce'u} in order to actually say {le ka ce'u klama}. If I understand that
right.

I still support Jorge's proposal. If the only objection is that it takes over
{si'o}, then I'd be happy enough without that part of the proposal, too. The
all-{ce'u} ka seems to be only useful in metalingustics, though pycyn's and
And's proposal seems to make it the default when you use ce'u anywhere.

I'd be much happier if the metalinguistic "all-places-{ce'u}" word were made an
experimental cmavo, or a mode in which people agree that {si'o} would refer to
this precise concept instead of its normal, vague meaning of an idea.

So what's left is:

1. All empty sumti places within du'u fill with zo'e.
2. In ka abstractions *without any ce'u*, the first empty place fills with ce'u
   and the rest fill with zo'e. Where context indisputably demands an n-adic
   relation where the value of n is certain, the first n empty places fill with
   ce'u and the rest with zo'e.
3. There is no rule 3.

And I'll be happy to relent if you can show me what benefit there is to filling
every empty place with {ce'u}.
--
Rob Speer