From nicholas@uci.edu Sat Aug 11 19:05:24 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: nicholas@uci.edu X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_1); 12 Aug 2001 02:05:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 68873 invoked from network); 12 Aug 2001 02:05:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 12 Aug 2001 02:05:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO e4e.oac.uci.edu) (128.200.222.10) by mta2 with SMTP; 12 Aug 2001 02:05:24 -0000 Received: from [128.195.186.80] (dialin53a-20.ppp.uci.edu [128.195.186.30]) by e4e.oac.uci.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA28020 for ; Sat, 11 Aug 2001 19:05:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: nicholas@e4e.oac.uci.edu Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 19:09:25 -0700 To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: New to lojban, any suggestions? From: Nick Nicholas X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 9436 cu'u la maiky'elsym. >>I'm surprised more people haven't jumped on this one. Lojban is >>immensely >>rewarding, and also immensely frustrating. >it's only frustrating if you want to be able to say everything >you can say in your native language, right away. that probably >happens more often to Lojbanists than the learners of any other >language... I think this is endemic in planned languages; newcomers on the Klingon mailing list routinely do the same, and are just as routinely chastised for it. Doesn't seem to be that much of an issue for Esperantists, though; presumably because it is so much closer to a natural language. (You won't be surprised to hear I did it in Esperanto when I first learned it. My Esperanto _Hamlet_ wasn't much good, though...) Btw, it's frustrating if you want to be able to say everything you can say in your native language after 10 years of knowing the language, too! Let's not kid ourselves... >i recommend breaking up your utterances into brief >combinations of 2 to 6 words, & use anaphora, rather than attempt >the complexly nested Proustian monstrosities that some of us are >very adept at. no one is ever going to talk that way, except for >speeches by the Ambassador of Lojbanistan at the United Nations >(& the tranaslators will unplug their earphones, i assure you). Whether noone ever will, I dunno; but Lojban certainly doesn't encourage it, what with mental stack strain and all. But by all means, don't do everything at once. And Michael, you should know by now I'd never be contented with a sentence of 2 to 6 words, even while speaking. :-) .i mi na toltugni lenu mi gunka vi le stuna mlana be la manxatan.; gi'e tolsinma loi kerlo tutci pilno vauzo'o... Nick Nicholas, TLG, UCI, USA. nicholas@uci.edu www.opoudjis.net "Most Byzantine historians felt they knew enough to use the optatives correctly; some of them were right." --- Harry Turtledove.