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Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 09:27:25 EDT
Subject: Re: [lojban] noxemol ce'u
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In a message dated 9/18/2001 10:32:51 PM Central Daylight Time,=20
jjllambias@hotmail.com writes:


> Almost every use is ni2. For example, example 5.5 in pg 261:
> {le pixra cu cenba le ni ce'u blanu} =3D {le pixra cu cenba le
> ka ce'u blanu sela'u makau}. The x2 of cenba has to be a property,
> not a number. Same for the many gismu places for which the gi'uste
> proposes ka/ni. They require a property, not a number.
>=20

Ahah!  It must be a property because it goes in the {cenba3} which takes a=
=20
property.  And we know it takes a property because the gismu list says it=20
does.   And the cmavo list makes a mistake in saying that {ni} is an amount=
,=20
not a property.  By the same reasoning, {ni} must be an amount because the=
=20
cmavo list says it is and so the gismu list makes a mistake in saying that=
=20
{cenba3} must be a property. Personally, I tend to trust the cmavo list abo=
ve=20
the gismu list, but that is just a personal preference -- for which I have=
=20
reasons, of course, but no definite proof.  And there are cases where I wou=
ld=20
go the other way.  I suppose you have cases where you would go my way, but=
=20
this is not one of them.  Still, the gismu list has proven particularly=20
unreliable about what has to go in various places: {ka} in particular has=20
often meant only "abstract" rather than specifically {ka}, because few othe=
r=20
abstractions had been used much when Refgram was written.

<I would say:

=A0 mi mitre li papibi le ni ce'u clani
=3D mi mitre li papibi le ka ce'u clani sela'u makau

=A0 la tamtum cu mutce le ni ce'u barda
=3D la tamtum cu mutce le ka ce'u barda sela'u makau

How do you do it?>

Your firsts look fine, albeit roundabout; your seconds are also fine but ev=
en=20
more roundabout.
li papibi ni mi clano kei lo se mitre
li so'e ni la djumbos barda  [maybe {li mo'e le ka mutce} to be fancy about=
=20
it]

<The problem is when you try to force functions in places that
take properties.>
Hey, functions and properties are all the same sorts of critters.  And, as =
I=20
have said, it seems to me that the list uses {ka} in just this ambiguus way=
.

<>(It occurs to me that at some point you said that the
>answers to questions where what replaced the q-kau, not what replaced the
>whole question.

Arrgggggghhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I argued for a month with xod
that they are not. I am obviously failing to convey to you the
different meanings of {jai sela'u broda} and {ka broda sela'u makau}.
I can't put it more clear than that, one is a number, the other a
property.>
Sorry if I have gotten you wrong on this.  I take your ambiguous cry as=20
meaning that you do NOT hold that answers are what replace the q-kau.  But=
=20
you are the one who objected to one formulation of the set-of -answers theo=
ry=20
of questions by saying that it had to be wrong bcause it was not { George,=
=20
Sam,....}, which looked like that position.

<Ok, according to you, their mother is the difference, to me who
their mother is is the difference. To you, the amount is the
difference, to me, what the amount is is the difference. It seems
I can't convince you that what you're doing is using a relative
clause where you should use an indirect question, something that
English certainly allows, but Lojban, the way I understand it,
does not. And you certainly won't convince me that a function with
ce'u will do instead of a property with ce'u and makau, so I think
this is how far we will get with this.>

Well, I would have said "their mothers" "the amounts" and so on, but, yes,=
=20
that is where we disagree.  And, of course, my view is in the Refgram, your=
s=20
is not.  But, now that I understand what your point is (giving the whole=20
argument as clarly as you finally have would have saved a lot of trouble. =
=20
Maybe, or maybe it just took me a long time to put it together), I see that=
=20
we will end up disagreeing as long as we are separated by this basic=20
difference in what to follow as a guide.  Since my view encompasses yours a=
nd=20
makes for a nice general theory, I think I'll stick with it.


           
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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><BODY BGCOLOR=3D"#ffffff"><FONT  SIZE=3D=
2>In a message dated 9/18/2001 10:32:51 PM Central Daylight Time, jjllambia=
s@hotmail.com writes:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN=
-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Almost every use is ni2. =
For example, example 5.5 in pg 261:
<BR>{le pixra cu cenba le ni ce'u blanu} =3D {le pixra cu cenba le
<BR>ka ce'u blanu sela'u makau}. The x2 of cenba has to be a property,
<BR>not a number. Same for the many gismu places for which the gi'uste
<BR>proposes ka/ni. They require a property, not a number.
<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
<BR>Ahah! &nbsp;It must be a property because it goes in the {cenba3} which=
 takes a property. &nbsp;And we know it takes a property because the gismu =
list says it does. &nbsp;&nbsp;And the cmavo list makes a mistake in saying=
 that {ni} is an amount, not a property. &nbsp;By the same reasoning, {ni} =
must be an amount because the cmavo list says it is and so the gismu list m=
akes a mistake in saying that {cenba3} must be a property. Personally, I te=
nd to trust the cmavo list above the gismu list, but that is just a persona=
l preference -- for which I have reasons, of course, but no definite proof.=
 &nbsp;And there are cases where I would go the other way. &nbsp;I suppose =
you have cases where you would go my way, but this is not one of them. &nbs=
p;Still, the gismu list has proven particularly unreliable about what has t=
o go in various places: {ka} in particular has often meant only "abstract" =
rather than specifically {ka}, because few other abstractions had been used=
 much when Refgram was written.
<BR>
<BR>&lt;I would say:
<BR>
<BR>=A0 mi mitre li papibi le ni ce'u clani
<BR>=3D mi mitre li papibi le ka ce'u clani sela'u makau
<BR>
<BR>=A0 la tamtum cu mutce le ni ce'u barda
<BR>=3D la tamtum cu mutce le ka ce'u barda sela'u makau
<BR>
<BR>How do you do it?&gt;
<BR>
<BR>Your firsts look fine, albeit roundabout; your seconds are also fine bu=
t even more roundabout.
<BR>li papibi ni mi clano kei lo se mitre
<BR>li so'e ni la djumbos barda &nbsp;[maybe {li mo'e le ka mutce} to be fa=
ncy about it]
<BR>
<BR>&lt;The problem is when you try to force functions in places that
<BR>take properties.&gt;
<BR>Hey, functions and properties are all the same sorts of critters. &nbsp=
;And, as I have said, it seems to me that the list uses {ka} in just this a=
mbiguus way.
<BR>
<BR>&lt;&gt;(It occurs to me that at some point you said that the
<BR>&gt;answers to questions where what replaced the q-kau, not what replac=
ed the
<BR>&gt;whole question.
<BR>
<BR>Arrgggggghhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I argued for a month with xod
<BR>that they are not. I am obviously failing to convey to you the
<BR>different meanings of {jai sela'u broda} and {ka broda sela'u makau}.
<BR>I can't put it more clear than that, one is a number, the other a
<BR>property.&gt;
<BR>Sorry if I have gotten you wrong on this. &nbsp;I take your ambiguous c=
ry as meaning that you do NOT hold that answers are what replace the q-kau.=
 &nbsp;But you are the one who objected to one formulation of the set-of -a=
nswers theory of questions by saying that it had to be wrong bcause it was =
not { George, Sam,....}, which looked like that position.
<BR>
<BR>&lt;Ok, according to you, their mother is the difference, to me who
<BR>their mother is is the difference. To you, the amount is the
<BR>difference, to me, what the amount is is the difference. It seems
<BR>I can't convince you that what you're doing is using a relative
<BR>clause where you should use an indirect question, something that
<BR>English certainly allows, but Lojban, the way I understand it,
<BR>does not. And you certainly won't convince me that a function with
<BR>ce'u will do instead of a property with ce'u and makau, so I think
<BR>this is how far we will get with this.&gt;
<BR>
<BR>Well, I would have said "their mothers" "the amounts" and so on, but, y=
es, that is where we disagree. &nbsp;And, of course, my view is in the Refg=
ram, yours is not. &nbsp;But, now that I understand what your point is (giv=
ing the whole argument as clarly as you finally have would have saved a lot=
 of trouble. &nbsp;Maybe, or maybe it just took me a long time to put it to=
gether), I see that we will end up disagreeing as long as we are separated =
by this basic difference in what to follow as a guide. &nbsp;Since my view =
encompasses yours and makes for a nice general theory, I think I'll stick w=
ith it.
<BR>
<BR></FONT></HTML>
           
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