From xod@sixgirls.org Tue Sep 04 06:46:27 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: xod@reva.sixgirls.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_2); 4 Sep 2001 13:46:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 92098 invoked from network); 4 Sep 2001 13:44:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 4 Sep 2001 13:44:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO reva.sixgirls.org) (64.152.7.13) by mta1 with SMTP; 4 Sep 2001 13:44:10 -0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by reva.sixgirls.org (8.11.6/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f84Di9i06637 for ; Tue, 4 Sep 2001 09:44:09 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 09:44:08 -0400 (EDT) To: Subject: RE: [lojban] li'i (was: Another stab at a Record on ce'u In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII From: Invent Yourself X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 10425 On Sun, 2 Sep 2001, And Rosta wrote: > Xod: > > On Fri, 31 Aug 2001, And Rosta wrote: > > > xod: > > > > On Thu, 30 Aug 2001, And Rosta wrote: > > > > > Xod: > > > > > > On Wed, 29 Aug 2001, And Rosta wrote: > > > > > > > > i. ce'u makes sense in li'i as well as du'u and ka. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually, I don't think so. Does "li'i da -rain" [bugger. tip of the > > > > > > > tongue. carmi?cevni? no] (= experience of it raining) make sense. I > > > > > > > think it does. So I think "experience of having legs" is NOT > > > > > > > "li'i ce'u se tuple" but rather "li'i le se NO'AU se tuple", where > > > > > > > NO'AU = next outer phrase (regardless of whether it is a bridi) = a > > > > > > > sibling of NO'A. > > > > > > > > > > > > li'i ce'u klama > > > > > > experience of going > > > > > > > > > > > > li'i ce'u xelklama > > > > > > experience of being a vehicle > > > > > > > > > > > > etc. > > > > > > > > > > But what sort of thing is ce'u in this construction. It seems nothing > > > > > more than a variable bound to x2 of li'i. That's not at all what ce'u > > > > > in ka or si'o or du'u is. So I'd change your examples to: > > > > > > > > What is the big difference you see between si'o2 and li'i2? > > > > > > I don't really understand what you're asking. But at any rate, it is > > > clear that a ce'u in si'o is not bound to x2 of si'o (le se si'o). > > > > I see what you're saying. But the li'i needs a focus. Are you suggesting > > we bust out yet another cmavo rather than use ce'u in li'i? > > The li'i doesn't always need a focus: {le li'i da carvi kei be mi} = > my experience of it raining. How can you experience it raining? Are you experiencing {li'i ce'u carvi}, being rain? Or being rained upon (li'i carvi ce'u}? Or being a something cloud-like, that generates rain {li'i carvi fi ce'u}? Pissing out of a window is part of the carvi experience just as much as getting dripped on from an air conditioner. Without ce'u, only flimsy contextual clues provide the data. So "my experience of me belching" should > be {le li'i mi kafke kei be mi}, not {le li'i ce'u kafke kei be mi}. Next you'll declare the second mi redundant and try to get away with {li'i mi kafke}. But the fact that there is a li'i2 indicates to me that the li'i bridi refers to an abstraction, like a ka or such, which relates ideas to each other, and only later gets fixed to refer to some particular person. ----- "We should destroy the Muslims' homes while leaving the Christians' homes alone." -- Rehavam Zeevi, Israeli Tourism Minister