To: lojban@yahoogroups.com
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Subject: Re: [lojban] noxemol ce'u
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 03:31:05 
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From: "Jorge Llambias" <jjllambias@hotmail.com>
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la pycyn cusku di'e

> > ni1 ko'a broda = jai sela'u broda be fai ko'a
> > ni2 ce'u broda = ka ce'u broda sela'u makau
>
>So we are back to the claim that it is
>the number buried before after the {sela'u} BAI.  That looks about right,
>except that I do not see what your {ni2} is now, since I never see anyone 
>(I
>can't even find a case where you) use it.

Almost every use is ni2. For example, example 5.5 in pg 261:
{le pixra cu cenba le ni ce'u blanu} = {le pixra cu cenba le
ka ce'u blanu sela'u makau}. The x2 of cenba has to be a property,
not a number. Same for the many gismu places for which the gi'uste
proposes ka/ni. They require a property, not a number.

>To take an
>easy familiar case, the amount that I am tall is 5' 9" in feet/inches, he
>amount thad Jumbo is big is very in informal scales (and the amount that 
>Tom
>Thumb is big is not at all in the same scale).  And so on.

In Lojban, please?

I would say:

  mi mitre li papibi le ni ce'u clani
= mi mitre li papibi le ka ce'u clani sela'u makau

  la tamtum cu mutce le ni ce'u barda
= la tamtum cu mutce le ka ce'u barda sela'u makau

How do you do it?

>Ahah!?  Is the distinction here between {ni ko'a broda} and {ni ce'u broda}
>the oen that you are driving at with your strange division?   But they are
>the just the function and the applied function, not two different 
>structures
>(any more than say {le mamta be la dubias} and {le mamta be ce'u} are.

The problem is when you try to force functions in places that
take properties.

>(It occurs to me that at some point you said that the
>answers to questions where what replaced the q-kau, not what replaced the
>whole question.

Arrgggggghhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I argued for a month with xod
that they are not. I am obviously failing to convey to you the
different meanings of {jai sela'u broda} and {ka broda sela'u makau}.
I can't put it more clear than that, one is a number, the other a
property.

>Once more, the epsilon (member) function is defined on Fx1...xn as the 
>extent
>to which <ref(x1),...,ref(xn)> is in Ref (F).  In two valued set theory the
>possible values are 0 and 1 and usually correspond to the truth values of
>Fx1...xn.

Great. That's ni1. But not something you can put in the x3 of frica.

>Please use {ni2} in a complete example (it's ahrd to know what to do with a
>{ka} unless one knows what the predicate is that it is subordinated to) 
>that
>is not just a roundabout use of {ni1}.  Maybe that will help.  I note as an
>aid that all of the examples given so far an purportedly {ni2} are in fact
>{ni1}s as far as I can see (as I have pointed out in analyses before).

Ok, according to you, their mother is the difference, to me who
their mother is is the difference. To you, the amount is the
difference, to me, what the amount is is the difference. It seems
I can't convince you that what you're doing is using a relative
clause where you should use an indirect question, something that
English certainly allows, but Lojban, the way I understand it,
does not. And you certainly won't convince me that a function with
ce'u will do instead of a property with ce'u and makau, so I think
this is how far we will get with this.

mu'o mi'e xorxes


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