From xod@sixgirls.org Wed Sep 19 23:13:13 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: xod@reva.sixgirls.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_2_2); 20 Sep 2001 06:13:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 15612 invoked from network); 20 Sep 2001 06:13:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by 10.1.1.223 with QMQP; 20 Sep 2001 06:13:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO reva.sixgirls.org) (64.152.7.13) by mta3 with SMTP; 20 Sep 2001 06:13:12 -0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by reva.sixgirls.org (8.11.6+3.4W/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f8K6DBd11297 for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2001 02:13:12 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 02:13:11 -0400 (EDT) To: Subject: Re: Laadan [was: Re: [lojban] A revised ce'u proposal involving si'o (fwd) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010919230324.00df1610@pop.cais.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII From: Invent Yourself X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 10890 On Wed, 19 Sep 2001, Bob LeChevalier (lojbab) wrote: > At 01:45 AM 9/20/01 +0000, michael helsem wrote: > > >From: "Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" > > > > >Actually, Laadan was more thoroughly designed than you give it credit > > >for. SHE did write it up in a book, and apparently there has been a small > > >circle of people who got to minimal conversational ability with it. > > > > > > >yes; i have the book, & while it's not as thorough as a poet > >might wish, it does lay out enough to get started. and i have > >to say, it is an interesting sketch. but it hasn't received > >the intense usage & development that Klingon (which started > >at about the same point) has seen. i'm not even sure if anyone > >besides the inventor has written in it... > > I'm not sure the inventor ever wrote in it (more than teaching examples), > rather than about it. But she did publish a newsletter in which she > reported on others who had used it. And she has a discussion on her web page: > http://www.sfwa.org/members/elgin/Laadan.html She writes: "They lacked ways to express emotional information conveniently, so that -- especially in English -- much of that information had to be carried by body language and was almost entirely missing from written language. This characteristic (which makes English so well suited for business) left women vulnerable to hostile language followed by the ancient "But all I said was...." excuse; and it restricted women to the largely useless "It wasn't what you said, it was the way you said it!" defense against such hostility. In constructing Ladan, I focused on giving it features intended to repair those two deficiencies." Since we have attitudinals in Lojban, we should not color utterances without attudinals with emotional content, as we do in English and probably all natural languages. Since we have cmavo ui we have no need for subtlety and entendre, and in fact should do away with it, since perceived unintended slights are a major miscommunication threat. It should be possible for me to utter {do bebna} without offense. However, {le'o do bebna} is fighting words. Discuss it here: http://nuzban.wiw.org/wiki/index.php?full=Emotions%20in%20Lojban ----- It's said that Mullah Omar has met two non-Muslims in his life. Others say even that's not true. Sami ul-Haq, Osama bin Laden's closest friend in Pakistan, runs the "University for the Education of Truth," a fundamentalist institution that educated and trained nine out of the Taliban's top 10 leaders.