From rob@twcny.rr.com Wed Oct 17 23:25:38 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: rob@twcny.rr.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 18 Oct 2001 06:25:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 42346 invoked from network); 18 Oct 2001 06:25:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 18 Oct 2001 06:25:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mailout5.nyroc.rr.com) (24.92.226.169) by mta1 with SMTP; 18 Oct 2001 06:25:37 -0000 Received: from mail1.twcny.rr.com (mail1-1 [24.92.226.139]) by mailout5.nyroc.rr.com (8.11.6/Road Runner 1.12) with ESMTP id f9I6Pbh04700 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 02:25:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from riff ([24.92.246.4]) by mail1.twcny.rr.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-59787U250000L250000S0V35) with ESMTP id com for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 02:24:39 -0400 Received: from rob by riff with local (Exim 3.32 #1 (Debian)) id 15u6bt-0000YU-00 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 02:24:53 -0400 Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 02:24:53 -0400 To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Subject: Broken Phone, round 2 Message-ID: <20011018022453.A2082@twcny.rr.com> Reply-To: rob@twcny.rr.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.20i X-Is-It-Not-Nifty: www.sluggy.com From: Rob Speer X-Yahoo-Profile: squeekybobo X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 11611 I'll give my interpretation of parts of the Round 2 results here. Preface: Evgenii: to'i ko'a goi lo ninmu .i ko'u goi lo nanmu toi Me (Rob): fo'a goi le ninmu .i ko'u goi le nanmu It's interesting that both of us used this tactic to introduce the pronouns, with several translations without it in between. Some people relied on the "ko'V = male, fo'V = female" convention, or perhaps it was only left to context that "Flora" is probably female. Original: She shuddered with terror. Craig: ko'a desku le se terpa Pierre: Elle frissonne de peur. Evgenii: ko'a desku seci'o le nu terpa And: fo'e noi ninmu cu desku loi nu terpa fa le no'a Jorge: Ella tiembla de miedo. Rob: fo'a desku le nu terpa Greg: She shook with fear. Arnt: le ninmu cu terpa desku Nora: The woman trembled with fear. We got off to a good start - the meaning survived intact. I think that {le se terpa} and {le nu terpa} are both equally good causes of shaking. Evgenii managed to make good use of a modal I've never seen before. And was rather verbose. Original: I say, beware of me, if you keep not the condition I have proposed. Craig: ku'i e'u mi se terpa va'o lenu do na gasnu da poi se cpedu mi Pierre: Mais si vous ne fai^tes pas ce que je demande, qu'on ait peur de moi! Evgenii: ku'i fau le nu do na zukte le minde se cpedu be mi kei ko terpa tu'a mi And: ro ba'oi tu'odu'u ge na se gasnu do gi te se minde mi kei do mi terpa Jorge: Si no hace lo que le ordeno, me temera'. Rob: ganai do na zukte le te minde be do bei mi gi mi ba terpa Greg: If you don't do what I told you, I will be afraid. Arnt: ga do ba tinbe fi mi gi mi ba terpa Nora: If you don't obey me, I will be scared. The reversal of the meaning of this sentence is my fault; I mixed up subject and object. Here the many different "if" styles come into play. Craig uses {va'o}. Evgenii uses {fau}, which appears rather quaint to me. And used {ba'oi}, {tu'odu'u}, and {ge...gi} all in a row (the first two I feel to be solutions looking for problems), yet Jorge understood him perfectly, and even gave a translation which resulted in me putting back {zukte}. I was considering using {ga...gi} which was the simplest logical form of this idea, but chickened out with the double negative {ganai do na}, fearing that the result would otherwise be translated with "or". Arnt did use {ga...gi}, and Nora did in fact use "if". Original: "The vampyre!" said Flora. Craig: lo'u po'u le morsrvampiro .oi.iisai le'u se cusku la flor. Pierre: <> dit Flore. Evgenii: la flor. cusku lu .iisai le malmi'o ke ciblu pinxe crida li'u And: la flor terpa cusku lu le bi'u nai ge malmisno gi ciblu zei pinxe li'u Jorge: --El infame bebedor de sangre --dice Flor con temor. Rob: lu le malmi'o voi pinxe loi ciblu sei la flor .iidai cusku Greg: "The damned famous, those vampires" said Flo fearfully Arnt: lu le seldapma misno .i le tu cridrvampiri li'u se terpa cusku la flos. Nora: "The accursed celebrity. The vampire of the remote," Flo said fearfully. Wow, we sure read a lot into two words. I believe that, in spoken Lojban, people will not say attitudinals if they are quite obviously expressing that attitude. Flora is afraid enough that I doubt she'd bother to say ".oi.iisai", which Craig had inside the quote. And eventually brought this to the outside of the quote. Evgenii seems to rather like tanru. I do too, but I think the word "vampire" is one of the instances where they fail. This probably led to the excessive description. And took the description and made it rather verbose, and Jorge then condensed it down to five words. I experimented with {voi} and am not quite sure I got it right. Greg made up his own interpretation of {malmi'o}. The word "those" also came from somewhere; perhaps it was from my use of {tu} earlier, and he supposed the vampires were in the same place. Arnt figured out what we were talking about, and came full circle to {cridrvampiri}. Nora's translation back into English illustrates the absurdity of our descriptions, yet miraculously contains the original two words. Flora -> Flor -> Flo, at least, wasn't nearly as messy as Lir -> Evil Eye. Original: There was a sudden crash of broken glass, and then all was still. Craig: sa'ei krac. se porpi le blaci .ija'e roda cu smaji Pierre: Crac! casse le verre. Donc tout se tait. Evgenii: zoi gy. krak gy. cu sance le nu le blaci kabri cu porpi And: sa'ei krak porpi fa le kabri i ku'i no da co'a vi sance Jorge: Crac, se rompe una copa, pero no hay sonido alguno. Rob: sa'ei .krak. se porpi lo kabri .i ku'i noda sance Greg: Crack. Pieces of cup. But then there was no sound. Arnt: bikla sance .i kabri spisa .i ku'i babo na'e sance Nora: Crack! Cup pieces. But then, silence. So 3 out of 5 of us keep track of the experimental cmavo page of the Wiki. Craig's {ija'e} seems a bit odd; a crash of broken glass does not result in silence in my mind. For a while after that, we didn't even bother with cause and effect. Greg at last restores the temporal order. The glass (material) becomes a {blaci kabri} and then just a {kabri}. Blame English. Greg illustrates why not to put absolute faith in jbofihe's gloss; "Pieces of cup" is an observative and might come from {se porpi be lo kabri}, but not {se porpi lo kabri}. That's all for my analysis. Someone else feel free to look at the other sentences. -- la rab.spir noi pinxe loi ciblu