From Ti@fa-kuan.muc.de Tue Oct 16 10:23:52 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: Ti@fa-kuan.muc.de X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 16 Oct 2001 17:23:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 48582 invoked from network); 16 Oct 2001 17:23:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by 10.1.1.221 with QMQP; 16 Oct 2001 17:23:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n21.groups.yahoo.com) (10.1.2.81) by mta1 with SMTP; 16 Oct 2001 17:23:51 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: Ti@fa-kuan.muc.de Received: from [10.1.4.68] by n21.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Oct 2001 17:23:51 -0000 Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 17:23:49 -0000 To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Bulrushes Message-ID: <9qhqf6+mq9s@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <01101523272212.02047@neofelis> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 3084 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 193.149.49.79 From: "A.W.T." X-Yahoo-Profile: aolung X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 11589 --- In lojban@y..., Pierre Abbat wrote: > I am attempting to translate Exodus 2 and am getting lost in the bulrushe= =3D=0D s.=20 > So far I have this; >=20 > 2:3. .iba'o lenu ka'e mipri kei ko'e lebna le spatrskirpo lanku gi'e badg= =3D=0D au > lo tarla joi pesxu ly gi'e nerpu'i le cifnu ly gi'e punji ly le misryples= =3D=0D pa > ne'a la nil. >=20 > DR says the basket was made of bulrushes and placed in the sedges; NIV sa= =3D=0D ys=20 > it was made of papyrus and placed in the reeds. The Hebrew says the tevah= =3D=0D =20 > (which is the same word used for Noah's Ark) was made of gome' and placed= =3D=0D in=20 > the suf (which is the same word as in Yam Suf, Sea of Reeds). Confusing t= =3D=0D he=20 > issue further, some websites I looked up these plants on say that the bul= =3D=0D rush=20 > is a sedge (not a rush, despite the name) of the genus Scirpus, but one s= =3D=0D ays=20 > it's a Typha, which is a cattail (not a rush either). So what are these=20 > plants? Very confusing these botanical issues - at least to me :( So let me try to = =3D=0D be a bit systematically. 1) What I always have been familiar with from my childhood was that Moses h= =3D=0D ad been put into a "Binsenk=F6rbchen" (little basket=20 made of rush) - most probably, this goes back to Martin Luther's first Germ= =3D=0D an translation of the Bible. 2) Reading the text in a more recent German translation (not as beautiful, = =3D=0D yet pretty modern), I found the same word: 2,3 "... Sie=20 nahm deshalb ein K=E4stchen aus *Binsen* und =FCberzog es mit Asphalt und P= ech =3D=0D und setzte es im Schilf (reed/suf) am Ufer des Nils=20 aus". 3) "Binse" (rush) =3D Hebr.: "samar, 'agmon" 4) "Papyrus-Staude" (papyrus plant) =3D Hebr.: "gome', kneh-papyrus" Now it's getting botanical & problematic: A) BINSENPFLANZEN (Juncales) Familie (family): BINSENGEW=C4CHSE (Juncaceae) Gattung (genus): Binse (Juncus) Hainsimse (Luzula) I feel that A is just misleading (at least for me) but... B) RIEDGR=C4SER UND VERWANDTE (Cyperales) Familie: Riedgr=E4ser (Cyperaceae) Gattungen: Cypergras (Cyperus) Binse (Scirpus) etc. (=3D Eriophorum, Blysmus, Rhynchospora, Tricho= ph=3D=0D orum, Eleocharis and Carex) Now, it's quite remarkable that "Cypergrass" (Cyperus) is nothing else but = =3D=0D "Papyrusstaude" (Cyperus papyrus) and the 2nd genus=20 is "Binse" (Scirpus - also mentioned by you) and related very close to papy= =3D=0D rus! My conclusion is that Hebr. _gome'_ is the right word, at least referring t= =3D=0D o the family of _cyperaceae_ (if not directly to Cyperus=20 papyrus - which at those times was still closely related to that Nile area)= =3D=0D . "Binse"/rush used by the translations I know is infact=20 _Scirpus_ (which botanically is very close to papyrus) and not _juncus_ I'd vote for _papyrus_ (which, BTW, also gave us the name of the Bible, bec= =3D=0D ause of Phoenician _Biblos_ being famous for its fine=20 papyri) mu'omi'e .aulun.