From pycyn@aol.com Thu Oct 11 18:36:35 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: Pycyn@aol.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0); 12 Oct 2001 01:33:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 73232 invoked from network); 12 Oct 2001 01:32:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by 10.1.1.224 with QMQP; 12 Oct 2001 01:32:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r08.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.104) by mta2 with SMTP; 12 Oct 2001 01:35:57 -0000 Received: from Pycyn@aol.com by imo-r08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.8.) id r.13f.2cb06fa (17377) for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 21:35:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <13f.2cb06fa.28f7a2f9@aol.com> Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 21:35:53 EDT Subject: Re: [lojban] "knowledge as to who saw who" readings To: lojban@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_13f.2cb06fa.28f7a2f9_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10535 From: pycyn@aol.com X-Yahoo-Profile: kaliputra X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 11523 --part1_13f.2cb06fa.28f7a2f9_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 10/11/2001 6:02:42 PM Central Daylight Time,=20 lojbab@lojban.org writes: > No idea if it really is relevant, but a debate from 1990 is a REALLY old = one. >=20 Yes, and so are the answers. Certainly not acceptable today (I hope): 8 versions of "John is looking for a bicycle or a fish" split on 1) whether= =20 the thinks are known to exist, 2) whether John knows/cares which he is=20 looking for 3) whether the speaker knows which he is looking for <1. There are a bike and a fish, and John is trying to find one of these (h= e=20 doesn't care which one). =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 la djan. cu sisku lo relxi'uma'e .a lo finpe The-one-called John seeks an-existing bicycle (lit., two-wheel-vehicle)or=20 an-existing fish. > Well, {lo} doesn't guarantee it is existing, only that it really is a fish= =20 (if anything) {da poi relxi'uma'e de poi finpe zo'u la djan sisku tu'a da a de} (note,=20 this buried connective cannot be raised). <2. There are a bike and a fish, and John is trying to find one of these (b= ut=20 I don't know which of the two he's actually looking for). =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=20 la djan. cu sisku lo relxi'uma'e bu'a sisku lo finpe> The-one-called John (seeks an-existing bicycle) or (seeks an-existing fish)= . > Again, the actual existence can only be handled outside the the intensional= =20 context: <3. There is a bike, and John is trying to find either this bike or a=20 (possibly non-existent) fish (he doesn't care...) =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=20 la djan. cu sisku lo relxi'uma'e .a le finpe The-one-called John seeks an-existing bicycle or the-thing-I-describe-as-a= =20 fish (which may or may not be a fish, or even exist). > da poi relxi'uma'e zo'u la djan sisku tu'a da a lo finpe 4. There is a bike, and John is trying to find either this bike or some fis= h=20 (but I don't know...). =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=20 la djan. cu sisku lo relxi'uma'e bu'a sisku le finpe The-one-called John (seeks an-existing bicycle) or (seeks=20 the-thing-I-describe-as-a-fish (which may or may not be a fish, or even=20 exist)). > da poi relxi'uma'e zo'u la djan sisku tu'a da gi'e sisku lo finpe (there ma= y=20 be a shorter way for this, but I am not sure about the rules here.) <5. & 6. Similar to 3. & 4., but with the roles of "bike" and "fish"=20 interchanged. =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 la djan. cu sisku= le relxi'uma'e .a lo=20 finpe=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 la djan. cu sisku le rexi'uma'e bu'a siske lo finpe > da poi finpe zo'u la djan sisku tu'a da a lo relxi'uma'e=20 da poi finpe zo'u la djan sisku tu'a da gi'e sisku tu'a lo relxi'uma'e <7. John is looking for a (possibly non-existent) bike or a (possibly=20 non-existent) fish, and will be satisfied when he has found either one.=20 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=20 la djan. cu sisku le relxi'uma'e .onai le finpe The-one-called John seeks what-I-describe-as-a bicycle exclusive-or=20 what-I-describe-as a fish. > I'm not sure why the exclusive "or" suddenly. I ignore: la djan sisku tu'a lo relxi'uma'e a lo finpe. <8. John is looking for a bike or a fish, both possibly non-existent, but I= =20 don't know which one he's looking for. =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=20 la djan. cu sisku le relxi'uma'e bu'onai sisku le finpe The-one-called John (seeks what-I-describe-as-a bicycle) exclusive-or(seeks= =20 what-I-describe-as-a fish).> la djan sisku tu'a lo relxi'uma'e gi'a finpe (dubious, better stick to sisk= u=20 tu'a lo relxi'uma'e gi'a sisku lo finpe). --part1_13f.2cb06fa.28f7a2f9_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 10/11/2001 6:02:42 PM Central Daylight Time, lojbab@lo= jban.org writes:


No idea if it really is r= elevant, but a debate from 1990 is a REALLY old one.

Yes, and so are the answers.  Certainly not acceptable today (I ho= pe):
8 versions of "John is looking for a bicycle or a fish" split on 1) whe= ther the thinks are known to exist, 2) whether John knows/cares which he is= looking for 3) whether the speaker knows which he is looking for
<1. There are a bike and a fish, and John is trying to find one of t= hese (he doesn't care which one). =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0
la djan. cu sisku lo relxi'uma'e .a lo finpe
The-one-called John seeks an-existing bicycle (lit., two-wheel-vehicle)= or an-existing fish. >

Well, {lo} doesn't guarantee it is existing, only that it really is a f= ish (if anything)
{da poi relxi'uma'e de poi finpe zo'u la djan sisku tu'a da a de}  = ;(note, this buried connective cannot be raised).

<2. There are a bike and a fish, and John is trying to find one of t= hese (but I don't know which of the two he's actually looking for). =A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=20
la djan. cu sisku lo relxi'uma'e bu'a sisku lo finpe>
The-one-called John (seeks an-existing bicycle) or (seeks an-existing f= ish). >

Again, the actual existence can only be handled outside the the intensi= onal context:


<3. There is a bike, and John is trying to find either this bike or = a (possibly non-existent) fish (he doesn't care...) =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 = =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=20
la djan. cu sisku lo relxi'uma'e .a le finpe

The-one-called John seeks an-existing bicycle or the-thing-I-describe-a= s-a fish (which may or may not be a fish, or even exist). >

da poi relxi'uma'e zo'u la djan sisku tu'a da a lo finpe

4. There is a bike, and John is trying to find either this bike or some= fish (but I don't know...). =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=20
la djan. cu sisku lo relxi'uma'e bu'a sisku le finpe

The-one-called John (seeks an-existing bicycle) or (seeks the-thing-I-d= escribe-as-a-fish (which may or may not be a fish, or even exist)). >

da poi relxi'uma'e zo'u la djan sisku tu'a da gi'e sisku lo finpe (ther= e may be a shorter way for this, but I am not sure about the rules here.)

<5. & 6. Similar to 3. & 4., but with the roles of "bike" an= d "fish" interchanged. =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 la djan.= cu sisku le relxi'uma'e .a lo finpe=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0
       la djan. cu sisku le rexi'um= a'e bu'a siske lo finpe >

da poi finpe zo'u la djan sisku tu'a da a lo relxi'uma'e=20
da poi finpe zo'u la djan sisku tu'a da gi'e sisku tu'a lo relxi'uma'e

<7. John is looking for a (possibly non-existent) bike or a (possibl= y non-existent) fish, and will be satisfied when he has found either one. = =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=20
la djan. cu sisku le relxi'uma'e .onai le finpe
The-one-called John seeks what-I-describe-as-a bicycle exclusive-or wha= t-I-describe-as a fish. >
I'm not sure why the exclusive "or" suddenly.  I ignore:
la djan sisku tu'a lo relxi'uma'e a lo finpe.

<8. John is looking for a bike or a fish, both possibly non-existent= , but I don't know which one he's looking for. =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=20
la djan. cu sisku le relxi'uma'e bu'onai sisku le finpe
The-one-called John (seeks what-I-describe-as-a bicycle) exclusive-or(s= eeks what-I-describe-as-a fish).>
la djan sisku tu'a lo relxi'uma'e gi'a finpe (dubious, better stick to = sisku tu'a lo relxi'uma'e gi'a sisku lo finpe). --part1_13f.2cb06fa.28f7a2f9_boundary--