From pycyn@aol.com Sun Oct 14 07:44:13 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: Pycyn@aol.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 14 Oct 2001 14:44:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 80935 invoked from network); 14 Oct 2001 14:44:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by 10.1.1.223 with QMQP; 14 Oct 2001 14:44:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d01.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.33) by mta3 with SMTP; 14 Oct 2001 14:44:08 -0000 Received: from Pycyn@aol.com by imo-d01.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.8.) id r.162.2510ae0 (4233) for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 10:44:02 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <162.2510ae0.28fafeb1@aol.com> Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 10:44:01 EDT Subject: Re: [lojban] "knowledge as to who saw who" readings To: lojban@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_162.2510ae0.28fafeb1_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10535 From: pycyn@aol.com X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 11563 --part1_162.2510ae0.28fafeb1_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 10/12/2001 7:41:54 PM Central Daylight Time,=20 jjllambias@hotmail.com writes: <>=A0=A0 su'o da poi grute ku'o su'o de poi pelxu zo'u da du de >=A0=A0 For some x which is a fruit and some y which is yellow, x=3Dy. > I must be misusing "reference" then. To me that sentence has the > same sense as {su'o da grute gi'e pelxu}, and I perceive no > reference there, it's a statement about the world, but not > about any of its things in particular. How do we call the > reference that occurs in a term like {ko'a}, as opposed to > this "reference" of {su'o da} that doesn't point to anything? > This is just meant as a question of vocabulary> I think I am misunderstanding the question. I would distinguish your two=20 sentences (and {su'o da pelxu grute}) by saying that they all refer to more= =20 or less the same fact, but that thye do so in very different ways.=20=20 Operationalizing "sense" as a search for reference (useful, if not always=20 entirely accurate), I would say the first says that a search for a fruit an= d=20 a search for ayellow thing sometimes end at the same thing. The second say= =20 that a search for one thing that is both yellow and a fruit will be=20 successful, just as the third (parenthetical) says that the search for a=20 yellow fruit will be successful. All of these are pointing at the existenc= e=20 of bananas, say.=20=20 {ko'a} refers, if at all, either by pointing -- pretty much literally -- or= =20 by a contextual set of directions. {da} doesn't of itself refer at all but= =20 guarantees some outcome of a search for objects of some sort. Sorry this i= s=20 vague. --part1_162.2510ae0.28fafeb1_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 10/12/2001 7:41:54 PM Central Daylight Time, jjllambia= s@hotmail.com writes:

<>=A0=A0 su'o da poi grute ku'o su'o de poi pelxu zo'u da du de
>=A0=A0 For some x which is a fruit and some y which is yellow, x=3D= y.

I must be misusing "refer= ence" then. To me that sentence has the
same sense as {su'o da grute gi'e pelxu}, and I perceive no
reference there, it's a statement about the world, but not
about any of its things in particular. How do we call the
reference that occurs in a term like {ko'a}, as opposed to
this "reference" of {su'o da} that doesn't point to anything?
This is just meant as a question of vocabulary>

I think I am misunderstanding the question. I would distinguish y= our two sentences (and {su'o da pelxu grute}) by saying that they all refer= to more or less the same fact, but that thye do so in very different ways.= Operationalizing "sense" as a search for reference (useful, if not a= lways entirely accurate), I would say the first says that a search for a fr= uit and a search for ayellow thing sometimes end at the same thing. T= he second say that a search for one thing that is both yellow and a fruit w= ill be successful, just as the third (parenthetical) says that the search f= or a yellow fruit will be successful. All of these are pointing at th= e existence of bananas, say.

{ko'a} refers, if at all, either by pointing -- pretty much literally -= - or by a contextual set of directions. {da} doesn't of itself refer = at all but guarantees some outcome of a search for objects of some sort. &n= bsp;Sorry this is vague. --part1_162.2510ae0.28fafeb1_boundary--