From gordon.dyke@bluewin.ch Sat Oct 06 07:17:08 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: gordon.dyke@bluewin.ch X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 6 Oct 2001 14:14:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 16866 invoked from network); 6 Oct 2001 14:14:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by 10.1.1.221 with QMQP; 6 Oct 2001 14:14:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mta9n.bluewin.ch) (195.186.1.215) by mta3 with SMTP; 6 Oct 2001 14:17:02 -0000 Received: from oemcomputer (62.202.52.200) by mta9n.bluewin.ch (Bluewin AG 6.0.024) id 3BBD9103000FF9A6 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 6 Oct 2001 16:15:59 +0200 Message-ID: <006a01c14e71$4612e940$ca34ca3e@oemcomputer> To: Subject: broken phone Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 16:14:18 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 From: "G. Dyke" X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 11389 Coi rodo For those of you who participated (and those who didn't) here is the broken phone chain (At last ! Sorry but I was away all week and didn't expect it to be all over 24 hours after And received Pierre's translation). I did my translation trying to keep the word-order as close to the original as possible. I also created lujvo to replace single words and tanru for the others. (You may notice that I follow the model set by Don in '96 for the compiling of all this). I apologize for the length of this mail. Noone managed to translate what they received with meaning intact. I vote Craig start the next chain. because he's next on the list. mi'e greg zo gordon. cmene le patfu be mi --- The original text came from "The Last Unicorn" by Peter S. Beagle (1968), a few paragraphs before the end : "He cupped his hands for the Princess Alison Jocelyn, and she climbed wearily and in some bewilderment to the saddle. Schmendrick turned the horse, saying, "You will surely overtake him with ease, for he will be riding slowly. He is a good man, and a hero greater than any cause is worth. I send all my princesses to him. His name is Lir." 1. Greg Dyke .i la cmendrik. goi ko'a puki zukte lenu lei ri xance cu kevna kei tu'a la prinsEs. .Alis,n. djOs,l,n. .ibo ri cpare .u'inairo'o .uanairu'e fi le xirli'ustizu .i ko'a gasnu lenu le xirma cu carna kei secu'u di'e ki tu'e .i ju'o do bazi backla fu'i fo'a ni'i leza'i fo'a baca'a masno xirkla .i fo'a xamgu nanmu gi'e banli leka vrinau semau le vamji be roda poi telda'a .i mi benji ro lemi tixnu be nolraitru ku fo'a .i fo'a selcme zo lir. tu'u 2. Craig Daniel Shmendrick was making his hand into a cave pertaining to princess Allison Joselyn. And she climbs, wearily, toward the horse-travel chair. Shmendrick causes the horse to turn, saying, "Certainly you will soon come beyond, easily for him - because logically he will continue to be slowly horse-coming. He is a good man, and he is great in the property of bravery ; braver than the value of everything that is faught over! I transfer all my daughters of non-extreme government to him! He is named Leer." 3. Pierre Abbat ni'o la cmendrik. zbasu le kevna be sera'a la .Alison .DJAselin noi noltruti'u be'o le xance .i ri tatpi cpare fi le xirli'ustizu .i la cmendrik. cargau le xirma gi'e cusku lu ju'o do baza backla co frili ko'a .ini'ibo ko'a ca'o logji ke masno xirkla .i.o'a ko'a xamgu nanmu .ije ko'a banli leka virnu gi'esa'unai vrizma le vamji be piro terda'a .i mi dunda ro le naltce turni tixnu be mi be'o ko'a .i ko'a se cmene zo malzgan. 4. And Rosta Shmendrick made Princess Alison Jocelin's hollow from the hands that crept tiredly towards the saddle. Shmendrick turned the horse and said "Indeed, in time you will surpass them easily and therefore they're riding slowly calculatedly. How proud I am! -- they're good men, and great too, in that they are brave and, furthermore, braver than anything worth fighting about. I gave each of my princesslings to them. Malzgan is their name. 5. Jorge Llambias la cmendrik zbasu le kevna be le nolraiti'u po'u la alizn djoseln lei xance poi tatpi snomu'u le xirstizu i cy cargau le xirma gi'e cusku lu ju'o zaku do ba se frili le nu do bancu ko'a i seki'ubo ko'a tezu'e masno le nu xirli'u i o'a ko'a xamgu nanmu gi'e ji'a banli le ka virnu kei gi'e ji'a vrimau ro da poi ke'a se vamji le nu damba fi ke'a i mi pu dunda ro le mi nolraiti'upanzi ko'a i zo malzgan cmene ko'a li'u 6. Rob Speer Shmendrick creates the cavity in Princess Alison Joselyn out of the hands which tiredly, slowly move to the saddle. He turns the horse and says, "I know that, for a while, you will find it easy to exceed him; therefore, he will make sure to ride the horse slowly. He is a good man, he is great in his courage as well, and he is more brave than anything which is worth fighting over. I have given him to all my princess daughters. Malzgan is his name." 7. Xod la cmendrik. ca zbasu le kevna be le da'amoi ke fetsi nobli po'u la .alisn,djosel,n. be'o le xance poi ke'a tatpi jebo masno muvdu le xirma trixe stizu .i C cargau le xirma gi'e cusku ".i ju'ocai do ze'aba bancu fu'idai fi ko'a .i ja'o ko'a masno .a'i xirkla .i ko'a xamgu nanmu je ji'a virnu banli je zmadu fi le kamdarsi fe roda poi mapti pa'e cnemu fi le zumdamba fo ke'a .i mi ba'o dunda ko'a ro da'amoi ke fetsi nobli ke'e tixnu be mi .i ko'a du la malzgan." 8. Evgueni Sklyanin With his hand moving wearily and slowly towards the saddle, Schmendrick made a hole in Alison Jocelyn, the penultimate princess. He turned the horse and said: "No doubt, soon you'll easily transcend in his qualities. Thus, he is a slow rider. In the way of valour, he is great and braver than any deserved battle reward. I have already granted him to all penultimate princesses who are my daughters. His name is Evil Eye." -- [1].i la cmendrik. goi ko'a puki zukte lenu lei ri xance cu kevna kei tu'a la prinsEs. .Alis,n. djOs,l,n. The sticky past tense was unstuck by Craig, then untensed by Pierre, restored by And, untensed again by Jorge, made present by Rob and Xod and finally restituted by Evgueni. I still think my translation was quite good : "Schmendrick was the agent of the action of making his hands hollow for the purpose of something to do with PAJ." Craig must have missed my {kei} which would explain PAJ having a hole in her. I should have written {djAs,l,n} (note my cmene to avoid translating princess) Jorge voiced the "s" in alison, this should have stayed voiced through to the end I don't know whether the short final vowel in "Schmendrick" always making it back into English was a good or a bad thing. [2].ibo ri cpare .u'inairo'o .uanairu'e fi le xirli'ustizu I forgot the {dai} that I had intended to add after the attitudinals ; I don't know how I could have expressed them with tanru. Craig told me he couldn't work out the "in some confusion". Pierre's {ri} unfortunately referred to the hands &&'s relative subsisted throughout. It was also unfortunate that {cpare} is glossed both "climb" and "creep/crawl" with the effect climb -> creep -> slowly move -> [slowly and tiredly][move] (I liked Xod's {jebo}) I don't know whether an x1 of xirli'ustizu can fill the place of a direction, but I decided it was close enough. Thanks, And, for complimenting my "saddle" lujvo. I don't care much for either "horse-seat" or "horse-back-seat", but as Craig pointed out, it could have been some sort of carriage - only by reverse engineering that I would have said {karce} does the lujvo become fairly unambiguous. cpare in this context almost warrants a zi'o in x2, pe'i it is also unstatisfactory for climbing up ladders and stairs. [3].i ko'a gasnu lenu le xirma cu carna kei secu'u di'e I didn't write {cargau} because I find working out place-strctures for lujvo rather taxing ; I wasn't sure the x2 would be the object that is turned. Everyone else agreed with {cargau} though. Using {C} is much nicer than assigning {ko'a} I wasn't sure whether multiple utterances had their place in lu.li'u so I used di'e followed by tu'e.tu'u [4]ki tu'e .i ju'o do bazi backla fu'i fo'a ni'i leza'i fo'a baca'a masno xirkla This sentence got destroyed :^} {ju'o} survived I probably shouldn't have qualified the ba. I'm not quite sure why *i became *a. I still can think of no better lujvo for "overtake" (-> exceed -> transcend). I think fu'i can survive without the {dai}. Craig did, however, missunderstand it. Pierre translated Craig litterally. And restored the proper meaning and Xod restored the attitudinal. I still think that ni'i is correct. (.ini'ibo also works). And inversed the cause and the consequence - otherwise it would have worked quite well. The baca'a that wasn't necessary went through became ca'o and died. I liked Jorge Rob and Xod's efforts at adding some sort of cmavo to make the sentence mean something (tezu'e, make sure to, a'i - I would have had a'idai) I like Jorge's xirli'u better then xirkla [5].i fo'a xamgu nanmu gi'e banli leka vrirnau semau le vamji be roda poi telda'a I made two lujvo mistakes in this sentence: It should have been {vrinau} and {terda'a} I also should have put a {kei} after {vrinau}. What I put actually means "he is great in the property of being more a hero than any cause is worth" I'm not sure that Pierre's introducing various attitudinals is very good from a translation point of view (that is, BTW also a problem with Hamlet http://nuzban.wiw.org/wiki/index.php?HamletAct1Scene1 , if you put an attitudinal in the play, it's as if you choose a tone of voice. If you don't because they're not there in the original, the lojban actor cannot express emotion without adding some - and he can't do this because it spoils the meter (not yet, but I hope to transform my prose into verse - some day) "than any cause is worth", became "than anything worth fighting over" -> [read what xod wrote] This bit didn't do as badly as I'd thought [6].i mi benji ro lemi tixnu be nolraitru ku fo'a A pity about benji->dunda and Rob inversing the giver and the present (his only mistake, BTW). I forgot the {lo} before nolraitru. Any {***ti'u be mi} implies that there is a paternal relationship between Shmendrick and the princesses, as Evgueni translated. I would comment more but I'm getting a bit tired. [7].i fo'a selcme zo lir. tu'u I agree with And (I think). I chose {selcme} to preserve word-order