From arosta@uclan.ac.uk Tue Nov 13 08:11:11 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: arosta@uclan.ac.uk X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 13 Nov 2001 16:11:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 54632 invoked from network); 13 Nov 2001 16:11:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Nov 2001 16:11:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO com1.uclan.ac.uk) (193.61.255.3) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Nov 2001 16:11:09 -0000 Received: from gwise-gw1.uclan.ac.uk by com1.uclan.ac.uk with SMTP (Mailer); Tue, 13 Nov 2001 15:47:14 +0000 Received: from DI1-Message_Server by gwise-gw1.uclan.ac.uk with Novell_GroupWise; Tue, 13 Nov 2001 16:23:11 +0000 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 5.5.2 Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 16:22:36 +0000 To: lojban Subject: Re: [lojban] Introduction, and zutse/se sutse Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline From: And Rosta X-Yahoo-Profile: andjamin X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 12088 >>> 11/12/01 11:31pm >>> #jspickes@etrademail.com writes: #> .. If broda can mean either ca'a broda or ka'e broda, then what can lo #> broda mean? Is ca'a the default when lo is used? If not then I think t= he #> usual translation of lo broda as "something(s) nonparticular that really= is #> broda" is rather misleading.=20=20 I agree. The "really is" is there to contrast with nonveridicals' "is descr= ibed as", and would better be rephrased as "is claimed to be". #Yes, for all the good it does (given the other problems so far), {lo broda= }=20 #really means "some things that really broda" -- at the time and in the wo= rld=20 #being talked about. And that "world" makes it possible to talk about=20 #unicorns using {lo pavyseljirna} and a perfectly straight face, if, for=20 #example, you are talking about the Dark Forest about Hogwarts, just as {lo= =20 #stizu} applies to a chair that is never in actual history sat upon (burned= =20 #within instants of construction, say).=20=20 I think your answer is misleading. If {ca'a} is sometimes glossed as=20 "really is" (or some equivalent expression), then it is misleading to gloss {lo broda} as "that which really is broda", since {lo broda} can mean not only {lo ca'a broda} but also {lo ka'e broda}. Further, it is possible to talk about {lo pavyseljirna} with a straight fac= e even outside Forbidden Forest contexts, so long as {lo pavyseljirna} is interpreted as {lo ka'e pavyseljirna} and not as {lo ca'a pavyseljirna}. lo'i ca'a pavyseljirna is the set of all unicorns in the real world, so is empty, unless the locally real world is potterian or suchlike, while lo'i ka'e pavyseljirna is the set of all unicorns in any of a contextually- determined set of not-necessarily-real worlds, so is nonempty. --And.